Teaching - How to avoid ''Over-educating our first child''

[ButtercupsMom]

I am just listening to David Hazell's CD seminar ''Busy Dads Can Homeschool, Too.'' He was talking about ''Over-educating our first child'' and gave examples as: reading at 3 or 4, knowing presidents, labeling things all over the house, etc.

Dd began reading 2.5 weeks ago. We were very surprised. She went through the ''Bob Books'' (set 1) in 2 days and has been reading some simple stories from a primer (''The Boy and His Goat'' and ''The Little Red Hen''). She will be 4 on 5/27. She's practically an only child (her brother is 22 and lives in another state), so involving other siblings isn't part of our homeschooling.

Our plan is to begin MFWK in June, doing 2 lessons of MFWK per week. This way, K will last nearly 2 years. We don't want to rush, but do want to have a solid foundation in the basics. We have also purchased a few of the pre-school items from MFW (people puzzle, lock and lace lower case letters, giant pegs/pegboard). We also plan a co-op type playdate once a week with one of her little friends (who is 6 mo. older) and other family activities (visiting Grandma in the nursing home at least once per week, etc.). Another priority is LOTS of time to play and be a little kid.

Does anyone have any comments/concerns/tips to avoid "over-educating our first child" syndrome while still meeting our child's interests and developing skills?

Thanks.
Dawne :-)

[cbollin]

I'm sure many of us have many good things to say. Looking forward to hearing many of them.
***
There's a balance between it all that can be hard to define. On one hand, some children are just really ready to want to read at a younger age. They may even learn to read no matter what we do. There is nothing wrong if you're child is figuring out how to read. That's great. Keep reading to them while they are snuggled next to you. Don’t let them start to read too far above AGE level too soon.

Now, when my first born was little I spent a lot of time reading about Montessori preschools and all of those kinds of things. And Playtime for preschool. But – then when she turned 4 --- I changed and wanted an advanced child who was ahead of the curve. Why? So the grandparents would think homeschooling was ok. Don’t worry – I went to my first homeschool convention right before she turned 5. The key note speaker was Karen Andreola (of Charlotte Mason circles). Then -- and only then --- did I listen to the librarians and preschool teachers, and even my MIL.

My MIL was never impressed that first born was an early reader. She just wanted to make sure that her grandchildren enjoyed books and loved to read. One of her grandsons didn’t learn to read until he was 8 years old in spite of the parents and grandparents and teachers doing the right things. Grandma just read to him and kept on reading to him. Then it clicked and Alex loves to read everything now. So – just in case anyone is reading this with a slower to read child -- be encouraged.

MIL warned me against making a genius, academic machine type. And began looking over at her first born --- my husband. It would be another 6 or 7 years before I heard the phrase “academic machines” again. This time, from MFW’s David Hazell.

So here are some things that I did that I look back and think, “Why did I do that? And can I help you not to do them?”

* One year, when my oldest was 5 we did school 6 days a week for many weeks in a row just to condense a curriculum into a semester. My attitude was, “Well, we homeschool, so who needs grade levels?” and, “We homeschool, and if I do the curriculum faster, I can have her in 2nd grade by the time she is 5.5 years old.!!! I just love it because then I’ll be ahead of the curve and the grandparents will know what a good little homeschooler I can be.” What? Didn’t anyone else make that mistake?

*I choose books that were good -- but were not age appropriate. I’m not talking about reading levels here. I mean age level. With first born, I ended up reading to her books that she would enjoy now at age 11. With second child, she hears the same book, but filtered down. And with 2nd child, I let her get up and play and just catch the plot of the adventures.

*Oh that was a big thing I did wrong with first born. We not only read these books that were above her age, but we expected her to sit and listen to the whole thing AND make her do plot analysis. Oh no….. Crystal and John wouldn’t let first born just enjoy the adventure story in the Narnia books -- we turned it into a full language arts lesson meets Bible lesson. Don’t do what Crystal did.

*We tried to make first born memorize Math Tables very early. And this has helped in what way for long term??????????? Oh, it hasn’t.


Things we did right:

*We realized quickly what we were doing wrong and stopped.

*We went back to fun books that were more age appropriate even though she could read them on her own.

*We put her in group classes where she could not be rushed out of her age. That way she never thought she was too old to do fun stuff just because she could read. She didn’t stay in the same class every year --- she does grow up. But the older and more wise moms in the co-op wouldn’t let me make the mistake of putting a K age child with the 1st and 2nd graders -- no matter how well she spoke, read, or could sit.

*We stopped making every book a school book.

*We kept going to library story hour. The librarians there are awesome storytellers. In one of the programs, they pulled a guy from the AV department who likes to play guitar and be silly. So it became story and music time. It was just fun.

*I never told her that she was too old for any book. Too young, yes. Too old -- no.


--crystal

[RachelT]

We not only read these books that were above her age, but we expected her to sit and listen to the whole thing AND make her do plot analysis. Oh no….. Crystal and John wouldn’t let first born just enjoy the adventure story in the Narnia books -- we turned it into a full language arts lesson meets Bible lesson.

Crystal, this statement really cracked me up! Although I haven't done exactly the same thing, I am sure I have daydreamed about my own children doing Biblical exegesis and sight reading Chopin on the piano! Ha!

Dawne, I think that if you are already considering this issue of "over-educating" your child, then you will probably be okay. Can we really "over-educate" our children? That's part of why they are at home, is it not? I think it's great to give your dd time to be a 4 year old and not push her through too fast. Your plan of doing K over two years sounds good to me and I will be doing something similar with my own 4 yr old dd this coming year because she has sat in on so much of her big brother's K lessons this year. My ds in K this year still really enjoyed the PreK activities, especially the pegboard and number pegs.

I know there are a lot of old posts about doing K with a child who can already read, so you might look for those in the K section on the board.

Wishing you well!
Rachel

[MJ in IL]

I did this! I am embarrassed to admit how may preschool/K programs I used concurrently to make sure I was covering all the bases.

Dd(now13) read earlier than my others (4-5), but the others were actually much easier as they were older and "really ready." That said, none of them were that interested in trying to read at 3.

With her, in addition to my academic frenzy, we baked a lot of cookies together (she knew basic fractions quite well), did play dates with friends, had a beach day--I wish IL could offer me that for the others!, and did crafts.

In the summer, I tried to do a few more in-depth activities around a theme and had my own mini day-camp with a couple extra children.

We did a fun music class, went on nature hikes/walks, visited aquariums and museums... Right now, I help coordinate field trips for our co-op--I did that because it seemed my younger son was missing out on all the fun places I took the older ones when they were his age.

I guess my advice would be to let her learn to read as she is interested, but not let that be the focus of her "school-time." Even if she is reading, writing will most likely be much more difficult for 3 than 5-6 year old. The science and character topics can be delved into more deeply even if she understands the phonics.

Enjoy! BTW-We loved our time at the library for story time too!

[caod]

Dawne,

I would consider getting reading material about the developmental process of children. One person I have read recently is Mary Hood (Taking the Frustration out of Math). We would do ourselves and our children a great service to understand how young children think and conceptualize. We make assumptions about what they can do and because we want superior children we miss out on who they really are because of our preset ideas. I won't write much. This is my little soapbox right now. Only because I have had to learn the lessons. It takes courage to learn to know your child and trust yourself because everywhere else you will be hearing something different. There have been other books along the way that have been truly eyeopening and inspiring to me. But as I write this I am not sure if I am allowed to list them. You can pray for wisdom and go on your search.

Wishing you well.

Connie

[Mom2MnS]

Hi Dawne :)

I agree with Rachel that

if you are already considering this issue of "over-educating" your child, then you will probably be okay.

I think your idea of K over two years is a good one. I want to offer you another suggestion, too. Maybe consider waiting on MFWK until January when she is 4.5 and just continuing over the summer and fall with reading as she is interested. You could do school through play and focus on coloring and motor skills. That way, she will be a little more ready for the writing part of K, and you still will have 1.5 yrs to do K.

My dd has older cousins who school, so she was really asking to begin and ready at 3.5! Needless to say this thrilled me, but we waited until 4.5 to begin. It was a good choice for us.

May God bless you as you make your decisions :) K is SO much fun, and I know you will love it whenever the Father leads you to begin.

[Ariasarias]

Dawne,

You asked, "Does anyone have any comments/concerns/tips to avoid "over-educating our first child" syndrome while still meeting our child's interests and developing skills? "

I too had a very early reader. I hope I have learned from my mistakes of trying to push her further. What was funny was that any time I tried to push her, she would push back and want to stop. We used to read lots of books when she was little and I think this is why she wanted to read and really how she learned how to read. I have a 4 yo dd now who is beginning to read, but I am much more relaxed in educating her. I know the reading will come because she wants to read. That is not my focus at the moment. That is what is different from the first. Reading was so my focus because she was so smart, but now I look at my first and she missed out on age appropriate things because we were learning to read. Now I wish we would have done more puzzles, played with playdough more, made arts and crafts, cut, glued, etc. We did do those things, but we were so out of balance. I have come to learn that education is so much more than learning to read. With dd #2, I am enjoying the process more. All of the reading we do together and the conversations we have about the books or life (through her eyes) is developing a little girl who loves God, loves his creation and is so excited to know Him and His creation more. There are so many more years to enjoy this process together.

My tip to share is enjoy your dd, follow her lead in what she is interested in, but keep it at the level of a 4 year old. Even if she can talk like she's 21 (which my dd did because we lived on a college campus at the time) she is physically, emotionally and even mentally only 4. I have really learned this from MFW. You could also try to broaden her interests. My dd was so focused on her books and reading, that she was missing out on God's world some. MFW has helped broaden her interests about the world around her.

I would also agree to keep the reading on her level. This past year my dd read a few books I wish she hadn't read so early. I have been challenged to go back and read the picture books we missed that are mentioned in Honey for a Child's Heart.

My main tip is to pray and ask God. He will show you what is needed for your dd. One thing my MIL always has told me is "to keep them young for as long as you can."

[Lucy]

I think you have already gotten some great feedback. I think as you can see many of us have made this mistake and you seem to be trying not to so you are ahead of the game I think.

I think just keeping it age appropriate and remembering that just because children are bright does not mean they need more structured schooling. So sticking with K is a great idea.

Lucy

[kellybell]

I agree that it's so easy to overeducate your first (and possibly beyond first) child. I think it's sort of like puberty; you have to go through it, zits and all. We just experience it to different degrees.

I think we were spared some of it because we didn't start homeschooling until my oldest two were in 2nd and 4th grades and that is a lot different (better in some ways, worse in others...) than starting when your oldest hits kindergarten (or preschool) age.

When we made the decision to homeschool, my dh, had a word of wisdom for me. He said, "remember that average is just fine." I often have to repeat that to myself. Average is fine, average is fine, average is fine.

I think the Comparison Game can be a tough one to play. The girl down the street is in our speech co-op and she is simply a little prodigy when it comes to public speaking. What a genius she is! When I compare I feel like my kiddos come up short. Oh, and her sister struggles in math. My dd of the same age is much beyond her in math. When I compare in that way, I feel smug and overconfident. Either way, I lose (and so do my kids).

I need to forget about THEM because I am not homeschooling them; I am homeschooling my four. And, I want them to do as well as they can without wearing them out. I want to challenge them but not so hard that they fail often.

Actually, I think MFW has helped me from overeducating my four dc. The TMs give me a decent amount of work for a day. I look at the grid or the list and see what a day's worth of work is; and that's what we shoot for. Sometimes a little more (if we are playing catch up) sometimes a little less (if it's a pretty day and we want to go to the park). But, I know that's a decent day's work listed in the TMs. The kids can do the work (if they don't dawdle -- but that's another post) and still have time for extras (music, dance, and chores!) as well as to play games, rest, read a book for fun, etc.

[HSmommi2mine]

I think it is very easy to push our oldest child too much. I also think it is terrible to keep a child back simply due to age. My question for you is why/ how did she learn to read? Did you initiate teaching her to read, or did she?

With one so young I would never do school unless they wanted to but I also would be careful not to hold on to my ideas of where she "should" be in her education. While there is every possibility she may even out with her age mates in the next few years, it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself about teaching gifted children. Reading at three is quite unusual and even if she isn't technically gifted you will want to keep her stimulated and interested. I would encourage you to follow her lead. If she wants to do MFW or other school things more than twice a week, do it. Expand on what she is learning in K and don't be afraid to experiment and see if she can work at a higher level. You don't want her to get frustrated by school being either to easy or to hard.

[TurnOurHearts]

Dd(now13) read earlier than my others (4-5), but the others were actually much easier as they were older and "really ready."

*snort* Sorry, this made me laugh...is anyone else thinking of how you made one child potty train and let the other do it when they were ready? Oh, how many fewer accidents we had when we waited! But the desire to not buy diapers sure was enticing...Either way, they end up learning.

I'm sure something could be said here about cleaning up messes vs being older "in diapers," but I'll leave further analogies for my friend Crystal (she does them so well!)... :)

[RachelT]

I really second this statement from Kelly:

Actually, I think MFW has helped me from overeducating my four dc. The TMs give me a decent amount of work for a day. I look at the grid or the list and see what a day's worth of work is; and that's what we shoot for. Sometimes a little more (if we are playing catch up) sometimes a little less (if it's a pretty day and we want to go to the park). But, I know that's a decent day's work listed in the TMs

In just our first year of MFWK I feel like it gave me a guide of what to accomplish and some days I had to push my son just to get it all done, but other days it flew by and overall I feel like I would have done too much all the time, had it not been for my daily plans in my K TM! I am a firstborn (like my ds) overachiever, first year homeschooler, former elementary music teacher! Yikes! What a combination for overzealous teaching!! MFW has helped me calm down a bit.

;) Rachel

[ButtercupsMom]

Thank you ALL for the input so far; don't hesitate to keep it coming! I so much appreciate hearing different points to ponder. You all are so encouraging and direct; I really appreciate it.

Dd has always been interested in letters and words. She had been given an electronic phonics toy and she knew some letters and sounds when she was 2 ("m" and "k", specifically). We read a LOT, as many do. Since she was around 2, she also likes to "rhyme" things. She'll say "let's rhyme 'cat'" and we'll take turns naming rhyming things, whether they're real or not (i.e. "bat" "sat" "blat" "quat" "rat" "yat"). She also has had since her 3rd birthday a different electronic phonics toy that says letters and sounds and encourages the child to make 3 letter words (she plays with this occasionally).

It's so funny, too, since I taught kindergarten in Christian school for a couple of years. My "soapbox" there was not having kindergarten graduation since so many children aren't quite ready for school, etc. (we discontinued kindergarten graduation while I taught there; we had a kindergarten program instead). I stressed the importance of waiting on the child for formal education. Now, I need to remember that part of my "teacher" platform. :-)

Here's what I've gleaned so far from your posts:

Crystal: **Keep reading at age level. Age appropriate books. *I never told her that she was too old for any book. Too young, yes. Too old --- no.
**Keep in group classes with her age.

I love the age level thing. I will remember that! Age level, not ability. Age appropriate! Dd does the age-level thing with Sunday School and AWANA, as well. She was slow to potty train, though; she didn't want to leave her 2-yr-old Sunday School class to move up to the 3-year-olds. 3's and 4's are combined and most of her friends are 6 mo-1 yr older than she.

MJ in IL:**Don't let learning to read be the focus of her "school-time."**

As you guessed, dd definitely does NOT have the fine motor skills necessary for much writing at this point. She'll try a bit on her own, but we're pretty much still at "KIM" and "MOM" :-)

Connie:**...I would consider getting reading material about the developmental process of children. ... We would do ourselves and our children a great service to understand how young children think and conceptualize. We make assumptions about what they can do and because we want superior children we miss out on who they really are because of our preset ideas.**

I don't want to push, and I don't want to hold her back where I shouldn't. I really want her to be the girl God wants her to be.

Mom2MnS**I want to offer you another suggestion, too. Maybe consider waiting on MFWK until January when she is 4.5 and just continuing over the summer and fall with reading as she is interested. You could do school through play and focus on coloring and motor skills. That way, she will be a little more ready for the writing part of K, and you still will have 1.5 yrs to do K. ... my dd has older cousins who school, so she was really asking to begin and ready at 3.5! Needless to say this thrilled me, but we waited until 4.5 to begin. It was a good choice for us. **

We really will play it by ear. If the K materials are too much, we'll adapt. I won't feel bound by any schedule at her young stage of development. She's definitely asking to "do school," but I am so looking forward to art and music and logic; the tiny amount of paperwork, I think she'll enjoy (except maybe not the handwriting). I'm not going to push it; I don't want her to dislike "school."

Ariasarias:**Don't let her miss out on age-appropriate things... [do] more puzzles, played with playdough more, made arts and crafts, cut, glued, etc.
**My main tip is to pray and ask God. He will show you what is needed for your dd.
***..."keep them young for as long as you can."

Ours is sort of a different situation. She's our only baby (we got our son, now 22, as a foster child at age 5 and adopted him at age 9, homeschooled him for 5 years); dd was born after 22 years of marriage, the week before ds graduated from high school. So I'm a 47 year old Mom learning this baby to toddler to preschooler thing for the first time. :-) After waiting so long for a baby, I REALLY don't want her to grow up too fast!

Lucy:**I think just keeping it age appropriate and remembering that just because children are bright does not mean they need more structured schooling.**

Excellent. I'm so glad I came across Charlotte Mason and MFW again, in time for dd!

Kellybell:Re: Other's expectations **I am homeschooling my four. And, I want them to do as well as they can without wearing them out. I want to challenge them but not so hard that they fail often.**

Balance -- such a simple idea, but sometimes so hard to achieve!

**Actually, I think MFW has helped me from overeducating my four dc. The TMs give me a decent amount of work for a day. I look at the grid or the list and see what a day's worth of work is...But, I know that's a decent day's work listed in the TMs. **

Great point. I will consciously resist the temptation to "do more" just because we can...

HSmommi2mine:**I think it is very easy to push our oldest child too much. I also think it is terrible to keep a child back simply due to age... With one so young I would never do school unless they wanted to but I also would be careful not to hold on to my ideas of where she "should" be in her education. **While there is every possibility she may even out with her age mates in the next few years it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself about teaching gifted children. ...even if she isn't technically gifted you will want to keep her stimulated and interested. I would encourage you to follow her lead. ... You don't want her to get frustrated by school being either to easy or to hard.

Excellent points. This mom stuff can be pretty tough! :-) I need to do more reading!

**My question for you is why/ how did she learn to read? Did you initiate teaching her to read, or did she?

As I stated earlier, we just had things available, but we've never sat down to "learn to read" or anything. The way I discovered that she could read was that I was packing up things to move (we're moving across town in 1-2 weeks) and I came across the "Bob Books". She saw them and took book 1 and read it, then book 2. She read 12 of them in 2 days. She reads bits here and there; I don't press her. She likes sounding out words maybe 20% of the time, but prefers to make up the story most of the time. It's very funny to listen to her...

Well, I've gone so long here, I need to sign off. Looks like I should have entered chapter headings or something! Thanks again for all this "meat" -- there's much to digest!

I am confident that we are in the place God has for us with MFW and with you all here.

Dawne :-)

[cbollin]

I feel like I want to say something about the gifted thing. You asked about adding topics or interest and developing skills. I think some of my life experiences might have some value toward that ---even if I can’t give specific instructions to do it.

I was given that gifted label in elementary school. There is a juggling act between “burn out” and “boredom”. Some boredom is ok in life as long as it doesn’t led to a life of crime. Burn out --- not so sure about that. Haven’t seen good stuff from burn out.

If and when you read books about “gifted” academics, make sure you are aware of advice that will lead to burn out and put the book down if it seems to go that way. When I was in school with the gifted label, they still didn’t rush us too far ahead of the game. One year ahead was allowed, but not two years.

Instead, we were given interest topics and taught how to learn more on our own or encouraged to help others. Wow! That was public school in the 1970’s and 80’s??? One year, I got to do a genealogy research project instead of having to sit through the boring math class. Another year, the other nerd and I got to make some cartoons with 16 mm film. Super Chicken! To the Rescue! It was nerd humor and we had fun instead of sitting through a boring day in snooze a rama classroom. We worked ahead in our books, helped to tutor other kids and then got to explore different topics. For many years I got to be a librarian assistant and/or math lab assistant. I like doing that stuff. It wasn’t exactly the same as an apprenticeship in teen age years, but it was close. I could shelve that whole library at the high school and loved to help people find things. Hmmm (anyone need a link over here???? Grin grin)

We are all given gifts in our life. So, we are all gifted. I’ve mentioned this part to you off board when you emailed me recently. But I would like to say it again out loud.

Perhaps God has gifted your daughter with early reading skills for reasons other than advanced “gifted” academics. Remember to pray and seek His will for how that gift is to be used. It’s possible that it will take a few years for it to become known. Or it may be to bless others at the nursing home.

Maybe that’s something we all need to do more often. Ask HIM to show us the gift that He has given each of our kiddos and how He wants it to be used.

I still think you are doing a great job and will continue to do so because I am confident in our Lord as provider.

--crystal

[Ariasarias]

Crystal,
I really liked what you said

Perhaps God has gifted your daughter with early reading skills for reasons other than advanced “gifted” academics. Remember to pray and seek His will for how that gift is to be used. It’s possible that it will take a few years for it to become known. Or it may be to bless others at the nursing home.

I have thought about this in relation to my dd. If anything else, her early reading has made beginning homeschool much easier. That's been one subject that has not been the least bit stressful and I have not had to be anxious about her learning to read. I can see God has given her a gift with words and am anxious to see that develop in her.

Thank you for sharing your own gifted story. That helps me in trying to challenge my dd. I also agree that a little bit of boredom is okay :).
Nicole :)

[ButtercupsMom]

Crystal,

About the "gifted" thing... it's not something that I seek after and I didn't consider that whole concept. I only want to educate her according to her needs, and not force any "push ahead" stuff. I'm really laying off her reading unless she comes up with the idea. Even then, if she gets distracted or tired of it after even a word or two, I tell her that we can wait or I'll ask if she'd like me to finish it. Sometimes she'll stop and sometimes she'll insist on reading more. I'm trying to not make it a big deal with her.

She so much loves the hands-on things. We're going to love the Pre and K stuff, and so will I.

More later... and thanks for all your insight.

Dawne :-)

[Ariasarias]

Dawne,
I really think that you already have such great insight into your dd and are taking a great relaxed approach with her. Keep it up!!!
Nicole :)

[cbollin]

Dawne,
I really think that you already have such great insight into your dd and are taking a great relaxed approach with her. Keep it up!!!
Nicole :)

Ditto!!!

after a little devotional this morning in my 2nd dd's booklet at her sunday school class, I felt like I needed to add this in.... it's obvious to me after being a parent of special needs kids for many years, but worth saying again.

I said somewhere on the thread that "we're all gifted" or something like that. Well, many of you probably have seen that I write that I have special needs kids. They too are included in the "we're all gifted".

anyway.... a section of this kid's devotional from 252Basics reads
God wants us to see ourselves like He sees us. God plans for everyone to reflect His glory. We have a purpose no matter what handicap we might have." KNOW (that) God has a purpose for you no matter what you face.


It's a rabbit trail in this thread and has nothing to do with the topic. But it was one of those little moments where it connects with all this things that God brings into our lives --- even where we hang out in cyber space.

--crystal

[ButtercupsMom]

I said somewhere on the thread that "we're all gifted" or something like that. Well, many of you probably have seen that I write that I have special needs kids. They too are included in the "we're all gifted".... a section of this kid's devotional from 252Basics reads
"God wants us to see ourselves like He sees us. God plans for everyone to reflect His glory. We have a purpose no matter what handicap we might have." KNOW (that) God has a purpose for you no matter what you face.

--crystal

We ALL are gifted, and we ALL are handicapped to some extent or another. Our major handicap is sin; our greatest gift is Christ.

I'm not saying dd is "gifted," just early with this one particular skill. Her becoming a great reader is not my ultimate goal; her becoming a child of godly character is! :-)

I appreciate all the help on this thread, everybody. I'm going to print it out and 3-hole punch it and put it in my notebook to help me to keep my priorities in line with what God thinks is important.

Dawne :-)

[rachel]

Love this thread! Thanks, ladies for the encouragement- I've been phantom poster- out for a while- just don't have a lot to say most of the time.... But, I get overwhelmed with my daughters "brain power" and I really appreciate the tips like giving these kids ways to expand their "giftedness" without making it a focus or burden for them- in terms of service especially and points of interest. Awesome stuff!! By the way, Crystal, we are beginning the read-a-thon this summer- My daughter is getting ready to chose an orphan to sponser- she's very excited about the idea.

Good night to you all!