Encouragement - Our first year and getting behind

God's Creation From A to Z: A Complete Kindergarten Curriculum
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RachelT
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Encouragement - Our first year and getting behind

Unread post by RachelT » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:01 am

sarah wrote:Hello all,
We are doing MFW K. I am new to HSing and my DS is my only child (for now). We are enjoying the program very much and overall it has been going well. I feel that the phonics are right on for my son and I love that the program is integrated, well rounded, and has helped me feel like I really can do this. It has been fun and my son has learned a lot.

The problem is that I just feel behind. We began in September. According to our hundreds chart, we have only done around 38 days of school (plus the creation unit at the beginning which we did over 7 days). It's hard for me not to feel the pressure of "Will we get done with K on time?" I feel like the "school year" is technically half over so we should have around 60 days in and be half way through the program. Right? We're in NC so there are not any actual state requirements for this age, but I feel slack. And I do want to finish K completely before starting first. And I am eager to keep steady progress so my son keeps learning the phonics.

We have been fairly faithful to do school, though we do Classical Conversations on Mondays, so on that day we sometimes do not do our MFW stuff because that is already a full day for a five year old I feel like. Just FYI- we are happy with Classical Conversations (we use it more for our co-op and enrichment than our main curriculum). My son takes a PE and art class through the local HS group on Tuesday. He really enjoys these and I feel that they truly are worthwhile. Then it seems that we need a day a week during most weeks to do errands, library, groceries, appointments, visit family, play with friends, field trips. On top of that we have swimming and T ball on some evenings. I mean we only spend about 90 minutes on MFW K (which I know is typical and adequate), but I have driven myself and my child crazy a couple of times by trying to push MFW in after being gone most of they day and it's just not worth it. My husband really prefers me to go out in the mornings rather than afternoons and evenings. I try really hard to make this "errand" day Tuesday (after the art and PE class) so we have at least three days of MFW in a row each week. So typically there would be two days a week that MFW might not happen.

Just being realistic and honest about how my life works despite the ideal. I get that one day is a "light day" so I use that for one of the days above (my son goes outside most days anyhow and we just read our literature story and do that craft with day 5). I mean it's not like my son isn't doing anything productive on the days we don't do MFW obviously.... so part of me feels like we're okay.... BUT I know we're technically behind and I'm scared that if I can't keep on track in K then I'll never make it in older grades. I know I shouldn't worry about the future, but I really feel like if I can't do it at this age then I'm doomed. I mean for the most part I enjoy the pace of our life and the things we're involved in, I just worry that the actual "meat" of schooling (the three Rs) gets pushed to the back burner and my son will get behind in core subjects and K. Just trying to figure out how veteran HSers make it work.

My husband and I have discussed HSing year round anyhow because it seems to make the most sense for our family's routine, thus I am already thinking K may go into the coming summer but I would still like to have the option for it NOT to. Am I messing up by not doing 5 consecutive days? Thoughts?
Hi Sarah! I am thinking about your post... it takes time to adjust to any change in our lifestyles, like getting married, having a baby, choosing to homeschool. Before my children were K age, we would always go "out" to get errands or activities done in the morning so they would have the afternoon time for naps or rest time. However, since I began homeschooling in K with my oldest, we have had to change that routine. We have a few basic chores in the morning around the house, but we have to begin school in the morning. With MFW K we could be finished with our school work by lunch time and then I could do lots of other things in the afternoon. Now that my children are both doing CtG and are in 2nd and 4th grade we don't complete our work until the afternoon, but we are still involved in other activities after school and I keep our Fridays light and available for co-ops, 4H meetings, other homeschool group activities, or field trips. Sometimes we just use Friday to catch up on things.

I know you may not like my answer, but for me I have to start school work in the morning and schedule my days so that we can get through our curriculum and get the work done. We count the number of days of instruction in my state so we have school Mon-Fri each day so that we can have a break during the summer. I am sure that your co-op and CC are both good things to be involved in, but maybe you only really have time for one day of being out of the house or maybe you can do school work before you go to co-op or with K lessons, you might even be able to do two days worth of work in one day so that you can "catch up" somewhat.

Don't beat yourself up about it! Now that you see where you are and where you want to go, maybe you can just make a plan and try doing things a little differently so that you can not feel bad about it. The K year is a good year to adjust to some of these things and make your son's education a high priority. It sounds like you already have this in your heart and you are a good mom, you just might need to make some tweaks in how you are going about getting it all done. Or make choices on how much time you have realistically for other outside activities. We do several hours of school work during the day and still have time for ballet, children's choir, church activities, music lessons, etc.

I hope something that I've written helps! :-)
Rachel
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/

cbollin

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:43 am

(((hugs))) it all changes each year. I don’t think you are doomed. ((hugs))

He’s 5. So, you’re getting plenty of school things done with him. So in that sense, I’ll say you’re doing a good job making sure he is a well educated environment. So give yourself some recognition on that.

MFW K has 166 instructional days. I hear you saying you’ve done 45 of them over the semester. Yeah, summer time, year round might be the ticket for you if you’re still wanting to do CC and the Tuesday thing. At some point, you might have to scale back on co-ops. I know that was a hard thing for me to realize – that we couldn’t do our fun co-op every year and had to be selective. (my girls still did ballet and eventually ballet, and archery, and ....) Once the co-ops are done for the academic year, you might find that it’s easier to do “summer school at home”. Don’t worry about that. He'll be that much older and able to process more.

I know I was able to spend less than 90 minutes each day to cover everything in MFW K with my youngest because she needed to do school in 3 short 15 minute segments. It’s ok to do fun school (MFW K) on weekends too. I’ve done that. my poor youngest child has autism and has to school year round. sigh. I am letting her have a tiny break for a few days, but she has speech therapy homework to get done. sigh.

I hear your long distance concern about staying on track with structured curriculum a few years down the road. You’re wise to think about that.

I’m definitely at the stage now where morning errands have to go or we’re not getting school done. It meant some shifting for me. For a long time it was morning to get some school done at breakfast, pile in the van to take youngest to special ed preschool, get an errand done.. Now that doesn’t work! So we shifted. Well, ok, I enjoyed my Saturday mornings as errand time. And sometimes my husband did the school chores or did school with them while I was out of the house.

Some ideas to toss around to help you and your husband plan for down the road.
I’d consider getting some of the MFW workshops where David encourages help my homeschool is chaos. And the one with dad to dad advice to be a homeschooling dad while working.
http://www.mfwbooks.com/workshops.htm
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3234

So, if you do outside of the house errands in the afternoon, then you need to plan meals so that you can come home and get that done quickly. It might mean that errand day is always the same supper that is a quick fix (soup and sandwich night, or breakfast for supper night (pancakes and fruit). Or Planned overs (left overs that you planned to happen.) Or it could be crock pot night and you start that in the morning. If the only big reason that errands have to be in the morning is that you're too tired to deal with supper, then get supper done before you leave the house. (well, you know what I'm saying, right? don't wait until the last minute on Tuesday to think about supper. I say that as someone who works 2 afternoons a week and gets off of work around 5:30. I’m in the situation where my oldest can do some of the cooking as long as I’ve said “hey. Make this!” and sometimes my husband has to make supper because I’m too tired after work.

You’re not doomed. Take some time to write down what has to be done by certain times of the day and make a routine or some kind of time management tool that fits your personality. I would think that you’d be able to do some 3’R from MFW K on the Tuesdays when you do PE and art classes. It might mean that you do math and phonics at the breakfast table or as part of a wake up routine with the math stuff. Lots of ways to do math while cooking and setting table and folding laundry and driving to co-ops. Take advantage of those car schooling opportunities on Tuesdays and do math out loud in the car, or get children's books on audio and take the picture book with you. (my kids read on long trips? go figure? I get sick doing that, but they're fine.)

That’s a lot to digest for now. I’m confident there will be lots of great advice and probably some tools for time management discussed too. Some of them will make more sense in later years when workload picks up.

do you have a favorite meal planning resource, or would you like some ideas for that? I found it easier to use someone else's menus for a long season in our lives.

Blessings,
-crystal

sarah
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by sarah » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:56 am

Thanks ladies. Yes, getting dinner on the table is one of the biggest stresses about running errands in the afternoon. I would love some meal planning tools- they just have to be real. I mean of course I want them to be decently healthy, but don't give me a complicated list of ingredients I can't find at my local Wal-Mart. LOL. I definitely think that be more organized in the meal planning dept would help.

I have tried to do school work on Tuesdays after running errands, but it seems by the time we get home, get in the door, and get ready for dinner it's already close to 5pm. We seriously don't have time to do our work in the mornings before we leave the house on Tuesdays- we have a 45 minute drive to the group and have to be there by 9 am. Tuesdays are also when we see our friends and they sometimes ask us to go to the park, we have a mini field trip idea planned, we end up just talking while the kids play, etc. I know we're losing "school time," but I feel these things are important too. I think I have some additional guilt over this than some moms because my son is currently an only child and I feel like he misses out on just playing with other kids. So I struggle with taking that time away.

We do have interactive math and other types of lessons just as part of life in our house (and we read additional books most every night), but I don't feel like that is actually doing a day of the curriculum.

I have tried to tell my husband just want you guys are saying- that if we don't do school in the morning then it just won't happen so we have to run errands in the afternoon... but he still says it makes more sense to go out in the mornings and get home. I guess he just likes for us to be there when he gets home (he gets off by 4pm some days) and for our evenings not to feel rushed.

I also think we waste too much time getting going in the morning and I have tried to work on that. I think I just seriously need a schedule (that's not super strict) that I am adamant about. I guess I just struggle with what to put on it so that is realistic- do I leave off the friend time, do I insist that school work be in the mornings, do I try doing school work in the afternoons (even though so far it hasn't seem to work), do I quit the Tuesday classes even though I don't really want to, do I try to do more lessons per day, do I accept that this is our routine and make the curriculum work for us by just doing it 3 days a week, do I just plan on HSing year round, etc.

I was hoping you guys might just tell me I'm not that behind and that everything is okay the way it is, but I don't really hear that so thanks for being honest. I know I do need somewhat of a reality check about how priorities have to be priorities and I do not want my son's core education to suffer.

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by gratitude » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:08 pm

I hope you can find encouragement in knowing that my ds5 did 38 days of MFW K this fall. He will be 6 in April, and in our house '6' is when I become more serious about school work and the 3 R's. I think this comes from a number of factors:

1. Studies show that kids held out until 8 will quickly catch up and pass their peers academically.
2. Scandinavian countries start school at age 7 and far exceed America academically.
3. K for my generation was play time 3 hours each morning before lunch; essentially pre-school. It didn't hurt us academically.
4. My ds5 is barely ready for formal academics even though he can read and spell some; he really isn't ready yet.
5. My neighbors private school does Monday, Wednesday, & Friday for K, and doesn't really start academics until Grade 1; yet in Grade 2 she is reading Laura Ingalls books. So the plan just gave her more time at home at a young age, and didn't hurt academics.
6. I didn't start my first son for school until age 6, but at age 7 he can read very well.

I hope something in here will take the pressure off. Home schooling is a journey that begins with little ones and grows. Your ds will be fine.

As one wise home school mom with a lot of experience once told me, "Go slowly at the beginning. Take it really slow. Don't rush through material. If you do go slowly you will be able to go faster later. If you go fast, you will only be filling in gaps and going slowly later and playing catch up." My oldest is only 7, but so far it has proved to be great advice.
Last edited by gratitude on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cbollin

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:31 pm

We all have different ways that meals get done and different tools for time management and routines.

Agreeing with Carin (gratitude) on the academics side of it in terms of finishing curriculum.
You may or may not be behind in Kindy curriculum, but I think that’s a side issue to all of it because in a few years at least you’ll need to shift some stuff around. Think of K and 1st in MFW as a continuum and it’s ok to go year round with those. Some people end up using the last third of MFW 1st grade into the child’s second grade year, so there’s a balance of watch the child with don’t rush and don’t slack. A year from now it might be all just fine and working out great without stress of thinking “eek! I have to get mfw K done by such and such date”

I think it is perfectly fine to treat Tuesdays as your “light and independent day” and don’t feel any guilt that you can’t do quick school time in the morning before leaving or do “other curriculum” in the evening. That’s totally fine. That’s no problem. In later years in MFW, the schedule has “light and independent Friday on the schedule” but for many years my family did “light and independent Tuesday”. Sounds you are spending productive time on Tuesdays and that just making sure you are ready for some quick and easy and quality food would be a first step to help meet the goal of quality family time at supper and evening. That is a very valuable thing to do. So, you’re doing good stuff. You need minor tweaks to help for evenings and minor tweaks for getting out of the house on time.

Here’s a quick Menu planner with easy to do stuff. Some of the basic menus are free, and she also has a paid version too.
http://menus4moms.com/
She also has a breakfast and lunch ideas.

Note, go ahead and do something to save those free “basics” menus from there as they are changing how they have it set up But they are keeping 5 years worth of weekly menus, just not adding new ones in that section of the freebies. Here’s the archive on that.
http://www.menus4moms.com/kitchen/weeklymenu/archive/
I know there are threads over here somewhere with menu ideas.

If you have a slow cooker (crock pot), set it up Monday night ready to go and plug it in Tuesday morning. I like to do beef roast in them with enough liquid and seasoning to enjoy it that evening. Or to get chicken legs and thighs in the slow cooker with a touch of seasoning, and let that cook. The meat just falls off the bone and it’s really good that way. Otherwise I can’t seem to cook drumsticks. Go figure. Then with that already done (takes like 5 minutes to set up and it cooks all day), I can microwave a few frozen veggies and have supper.

Plan for quick breakfast that you like.

Make a 2 week rotation menu planner based on what your family already likes.

Quick ideas in my house when afternoons are not at home?
pasta meal – pick a pasta, sauce, green veggie that family will eat, fresh fruit. We vary it in our family by the kind of pasta (rotini, tri color rotini, rigatoni, or just good ole angel hair)

chicken meals. I use those bags of frozen tenderloins. Grill them on the George Foreman
grill. Add veggie for sides.

Burger night, or sloppy joes, or pulled pork sandwiches. Make those frozen fries from bag. ( I remember when I use to peel potatoes on my own!)

“beefy bean casserole” (ground beef, can of tomatoes, can of black beans, chili powder, onions are optional) – serve over rice. I bake my rice in the oven. It was a way to cook rice that I learned from a book in ECC. I’d call this chili, but it’s not my dh’s chili, so it’s not. I like it because I can start the rice in the oven while cooking the ground beef and then, it’s all done in about 20 minutes or 25 minutes. (oven rice? 2 cups of boiling or near boiling water to 1 cup of rice. Put in oven dish with cover. Bake at 450 for about 20 minutes until it looks like the water is gone.)

Mexican night. -that’s usually just ground beef, refried beans, cheese spread on soft tortilla. Or beef tacos (except right now we don’t do that b/c oldest has braces), or when my husband has the time, he makes really good baked enchilandas and it’s always worth the wait.


Sandwich night: grilled cheese and canned soup unless I can convince my oldest to make her chicken soup earlier in the day. Grilled ham and cheese. Open bag of salad (yes, I buy and use bagged salads for when time is too precious)


Some people are extra organized and cook batches of ground beef, freeze it or fridge it in meal size portions so that is cooked and ready to just warm up and serve with pasta, or wrap in tortilla or bun.

General stuff
I know when I was having to get out of the house every morning (Mon-Fri) to get youngest to group preschool, I had to be ready the night before to just have the van loaded up. Not everything is cleaned in my house either.

One favorite in homeschooling circles for general planning is something called MOTH (managers of their households, by Teri Maxwell). I’ll be honest and say her style of organizing and planning was the opposite of my brain’s approach to it, so I didn’t use her stuff. But I like the idea of writing down what has to get done that day and having times to move along in the day. We were the types who stayed long at park day and all of that. I am so not the rigid schedule type of person yet seem to get everywhere on time. I guess a touch of that “organizational management via time motion studies” is still in me from those days in university classes. LOL LOL

So, use other people menu’s to help you sit down and write out 10 or so quick supper than you like already and are easy to make at last minute or the night before and reheat.

Write down 2 or 3 easy things with basic meats that you eat
Roast
Ground beef (Mexican, pasta, meatloaf)
Pork loin, chops, boneless ribs
Chicken
Pasta meal
Non meat focus dish

But basically, pick the one big thing that makes you feel unorganized, such as meal planning on Tuesdays, and conquer that first with small tweaks in your life. Then, see how it goes from there. Yes, we all need to be efficient getting out of the house. Some children just need picture charts (shirt, pants, socks/shoes, and grab your backpack) to help with that.

I'll think you'll be fine.
-crystal

sarah
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by sarah » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:53 pm

Crystal- thanks so much for all the ideas! I definitely think menu planning and making a stricter routine for the mornings will help.

Gratitude- thanks so much for the encouragement. I really do sometimes feel like my son having fun and be well rounded sometimes out weighs the three Rs at this age and really do feel like our schedule allows that so it's good to know that it probably won't actually make him behind.
cbollin wrote:You may or may not be behind in Kindy curriculum, but I think that’s a side issue to all of it because in a few years at least you’ll need to shift some stuff around. Think of K and 1st in MFW as a continuum and it’s ok to go year round with those. Some people end up using the last third of MFW 1st grade into the child’s second grade year, so there’s a balance of watch the child with don’t rush and don’t slack. A year from now it might be all just fine and working out great without stress of thinking “eek! I have to get mfw K done by such and such date”
-crystal
See, this is exactly some of the thoughts I've had. I just feel like taking it at a pace that works for us is helping us enjoy it and my DS actually get it and that I can see HSing year round and going into 1st right after K. I do think I have been slack some though and I have to figure out a balance there. I like the "don't rush, don't slack" balance. It's just hard not worry that we're behind.
gratitude wrote:I hope you can find encouragement in knowing that my ds5 did 38 days of MFW K this fall.
Thanks for this! No offense, but it helps too just knowing someone else has only done 38 days. LOL.

Julie in MN
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by Julie in MN » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:11 pm

sarah wrote:I feel like the "school year" is technically half over so we should have around 60 days in and be half way through the program. Right?
We follow a local public school calendar. The school year starts the day after Labor Day.

First semester doesn't end until 1/21/11 and second semester starts 1/24/11. Maybe that will be encouraging?

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

Wendy B.
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:27 pm

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by Wendy B. » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:39 pm

Sarah- you have received some really good advice! It sounds like you are having a very full K year. My goal for K is to develop good school habits---for the child and for mama--- if the child learns a little phonics and math during their K year then it's a bonus.

That said, It is super easy to overextend ourselves with extracurricular activities. Every.single.time that I have done this is has been a disaster for schoolwork. When I try to rationalize a 3 day week or carschooling then I know something needs to be dropped. It all sounds good and the kids love it but I could easily be doing something every day of the week.

We severely limit outside activities. If an activity doesn't meet a specific goal for a child AND meet our limitations on our schedule we do not participate. Even if the activity is totally awesome! Even if the child really, really, really, really wanted to do the activity! School work has to be a priority and not something that is fit in around the fun stuff. My dh and I work on our goals for the kids together before even looking at what activities are available.
sarah wrote:My husband and I have discussed HSing year round anyhow because it seems to make the most sense for our family's routine
Hsing year round is great for my family. I could not make it happen with a 3 day week. There just aren't enough weeks in a year to cover a "school year" this way and I do not want to plan on schooling every single week of a year. We hs year round but still school approximately the same number of weeks. Mama needs a break!

I do not hs 5 consecutive days because I work outside the home the 5th day. 4 days/week is do-able.We can do a week's work of MFW in 4 days. We do the nature study on Saturday and my dh is willing to do the science lessons on the weekend if we get behind. We can make 4 day school week work for the younger kids very easily. My older kids during their teens years worked independently on the 5th day.

I do not see how a 3 day/week will work long term. I known folks who have tried it and they either burned out and put the dc in PS or the dc got further and further behind. 3 day/week with CC and the other co-op day is just fine for K especially if you aren't going to be disappointed if you do not finish MFW 1 until sometime during your ds 2nd grade year. Longterm I just don't see this working. IMHO.

I do not "get over" feeling if I'm not home most of the day then curriculum work isn't happening. Because If we aren't home the majority of the day for 4 days/week then the curriculum work really doesn't happen. It doesn't. I can't sugar coat this. If getting school work done isn't a priority and it becomes something that you try to "fit in" around all the fun (and wonderful) stuff that is currently offered then the schoolwork suffers. I've known folks who do a full day of school on Saturday so they can participate in more extra stuff during the week. Just a thought. Wouldn't be my first choice for my family but each family is different.

Which meets your goals for your ds best? CC or the arts/pe/park/errand day? My advice would be to drop the other activity and make your schedule workable.

Speaking of errands. Could you do your errands on Saturday or would your dh be willing to do a few? Is he willing to cook dinner on errand day? As your ds gets older and his school day increases in length you will have less and less time to devote to errands and chores. Something to think about and plan for. I couldn't manage the house, work PT, homeschool the kids, and drive them to activities without my DH who is willing to cook a meal, do some laundry, grocery shop or help out with a science project as needed to pick up the slack.

Best of luck mama!
Wendy B.
Graduated ds '08 & dd '09
Homeschooling ds 11 & dd 8 using RtR
completed: MFW 1, ADV, ECC & CtG.

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by gratitude » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:46 pm

sarah wrote:Thanks for this! No offense, but it helps too just knowing someone else has only did 38 days. LOL.
No offense at all! I was hoping it would help knowing about our 38 days for K! :-) :-)

I just found that it was about the right amount for my ds5 for K. However, I do think of anything we do for K as a bonus, since I really view age 6 or 1st or 6 1/2 or so as the 'real' start to school work.

It does change though. My oldest ds7 has done around 70 days worth of work this fall. This is approximately 5 days each week. When he was 6 I did 4 days a week, and for my second ds at age 5 I have kept it to 2 - 3 days a week.
Last edited by gratitude on Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jasntas
Posts: 471
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by jasntas » Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:09 pm

I noticed people mentioned the possibility of your dh picking up some of the slack. I just wanted to say that I noticed a lot of people mentioning this when I first started hs-ing. I did not find my dh willing to do much if any of this in the beginning. He felt if I were going to hs, which he was totally in favor of, that I should be able to do it all myself.

But over time I have found his attitude change. He does help out more than he used to and I am thankful for that. And I think as time goes on he will continue to take on more when he can. In the winter his work load is pretty heavy so I don't expect as much help. And he is also an Associate Pastor so I know when he is busy with those responsibilities I don't ask for him to help out at those times either. It sounds to me like your dh may feel a lot the same way mine did in the beginning. Just do what you can. Organize a little better (a big area I struggle in as well, esp. with getting started in the morning and the necessary evil of meal planning) and I believe it will all work out.

I have to say that I agree with others. For this year it's ok to have 3 school days with MFW K but then you will probably want to reassess and determine what is most important after the 3 R's. MFW is very doable in 4 days but I don't think 3 would work in the long run.

You're doing fine. I think you just need a few tweaks. :)

I hope I've said something that is helpful.
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

sarah
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:17 pm

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by sarah » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:29 am

Thanks for the honesty. I do feel something will have to give, but I do feel kinda stuck for this year with the commitments we've made (already paid for CC and classes) so it's good to know that we can make it work for K/1st. Honestly, I don't feel like in a general sense that we are over extended in the extracurricular department, but I have felt that I am scheduling the three Rs around the other things and I suppose that is backwards.

My husband does help out around the house, but isn't a fan of errands or activities. He has taught our son on some days when I've been working, but it's kinda a pain to explain to him what to do exactly and a couple of times I have ended up just saying not to worry about it, I would just do it the next day.

I also work part time- every other weekend so the Saturday thing probably wouldn't work for us every week, but maybe I will try it every other week. I don't see the "car schooling" thing working for us, my brain just doesn't work that way. Believe it or not, I am rather type A and organized so that's why if we're not having a "normal ol day" at home, I feel like it's hard for me to focus on teaching. I am definitely going to make up a morning routine and meal plan.

cbollin

Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:01 am

sarah wrote: Honestly, I don't feel like in a general sense that we are over extended in the extracurricular department, but I have felt that I am scheduling the three Rs around the other things and I suppose that is backwards.
I like that summary of it. :)

-crystal

Cyndi (AZ)
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by Cyndi (AZ) » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:59 am

I didn't thoroughly read everything in this thread, so forgive me if I'm terribly off-base. I loved Crystal's post about meals, though -- how great is that? That's exactly what I had to do - write down the meals I'm really good at that my family really likes and be ready to use them as a fall back on any given crazy day! I also got the biggest kick out of her "chili on rice" because I do something verrrryyyy similiar and we've never talked about that before! (No, it's not "chili," but what else are you gonna call it?) Having one or two tried-and-true crockpot meals is a lifesaver! I have to have a crockpot day each week.

When my dd was in MFWK and MFW1, I was the "let's make this FUN!" mommy. So cool to be able to be like that. We'd skip school for just about anything, even a trip to Starbucks to sit and sip lattes and make up stories to tell each other! :-) At that age, though, everything was school! We'd go to the grocery store (because she helped with meal planning) and she'd have to help select fresh produce, etc. She also knew every clerk in every store in town! She still sends Christmas cards and letters to my old hair stylist in our old state! I guess I'm just sharing that to say that in K and 1st, there's a lot more to school than rigid schooling.

BUT . . . . (and that's a Big, Huge word) there is much to be said for developing a routine! You need to realize that schedules you are developing now set the stage for the future. Based entirely on my own experience, it is really necessary to set school hours and make that my top priority and do it in the morning. If I'm not on task, then corralling my dd is a ginormous undertaking. I did it to myself -- I was slack when she was little. BUT -- I don't regret it. I got to spend precious time with her, and we got to do a lot of activities and things that we never would have been able to do otherwise. She was even a "worker" in a moppets room at church on Tuesday mornings, helping take care of 3yo's when she was 7. We could in no way have school after that!! It was a day-off from curriculum. But I didn't beat myself up that it was a day-off, it was a planned day-off.

We also moved across the country a couple of times when she was 6 and 7. (That's a long story.) School time was hit and miss and we took a long break from curriculum. Thankfully, I had an advanced student that learned how to roll with the punches! Now that she is officially in 3rd grade, we have to be much more serious about school hours. I don't fool myself into thinking that we'll come home from Park Day and do school in the afternoon -- we have to schedule around that. We had to scale back on activities and focus on what really mattered to us. It's like that analogy about the rocks in the jar -- put the big rocks in first, then the medium rocks, then the pebbles, then the sand and it will all fit. If you start with the sand, you'll never get everything in.

I don't know if any of that helps. I hope it's encouraging to know that lots of us have been there, thinking "how am I ever going to do this for 12 years if I can't even get through a complete week?!" ;) My best advice is to pray about it. It's amazing how clear things start to become when I ask God to plan my days for me. I still manage to mess a lot of them up, but at least I have a workable plan. :-)
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gratitude
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by gratitude » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:25 pm

Cyndi (AZ) wrote: When my dd was in MFWK and MFW1, I was the "let's make this FUN!" mommy. So cool to be able to be like that. We'd skip school for just about anything, even a trip to Starbucks to sit and sip lattes and make up stories to tell each other! :-) At that age, though, everything was school! We'd go to the grocery store (because she helped with meal planning) and she'd have to help select fresh produce, etc. I guess I'm just sharing that to say that in K and 1st, there's a lot more to school than rigid schooling.
I was the same way last year for my oldest ds K. :-) Amazingly the work somehow still was completed. This year for 1st I have increased to 5 days in theory, but I still take a lot of days off when I think we need it; or I think there is other types of learning to be done. Somehow the work does get completed. We have been more structured this year though with a morning start time of 9 at the latest, and finishing by lunch. Yet we still have taken plenty of days without school, and pushed 2 days into 1; so I can still take them places. My kids are so young and I have heard so many say on forums that they wish they had taken it easier when they were young that I try to do it some. When he turns 8 next summer, the age I am required to declare for WA, and enters 2nd and his brother enters 1st, I think it is going to change. The amazing part to me is my kids aren't academically behind at all. More importantly for us though they know far more about God & the Bible then they ever would have learned any where else.

Amy C.
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by Amy C. » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:41 pm

I just want to add my experience and 2 cents worth.

I have a great homeschool group that we are members of. The first year that we homeschooled I had a newborn so we did not do anything with the group but for the next 3-4 years we got more and more involved with coop classes, field trips, park days, etc.. It was a little easier when my kids were younger. As my kids get older, I find that we need more time at home to get everything done. In the last couple of years, I have really felt the Lord leading me to give up some things, good things but good things that He knew would not be beneficial to us and actually add more stress to our lives. I have felt His leading me to simplify. He always knows what is best. Over the last couple of years, we have needed that scaled-back time. It was hard giving that up, and every semester I think that we will get back involved in the classes and my boys have asked to get back involved, but alas there are no classes that they are really interested in and that will be worth the 25-30 minute drive there and then back. I have learned to pray and seek God on what He wants us involved in. When I forget to pray about it, our lives always end up in chaos and then I am not a very "nice" mommy and we are all stessed out. Sometimes stress just happens. I mean there are just some things that we can't control, but sometimes we add it to our lives. Over these last couple of years, I have really felt the need to filter everything through a filter. Does it enrich and benefit our family, homeschool, and life in general or does it just add to our activities and suck the life out of us and our homeschool? That is something that each person has to seek God on and then decide for themselves.

Also, I have learned that there are seasons in our lives. We went through a season where we were able to do outside classes and field trips and such, and we may go through another season where we are able to do those things again, but for right now we are in another season in our life where coop classes are not part of our lives. We do field trips with the group when there is one that interests us and that fits into our schedule, but there again it has to enrich our homeschool not take away from it. This is a constant thing to evaluate, but it is an absolute necessity for me to keep my sanity and be a good mommy/teacher to my dc and a good wife to my dh. Also, I want my boys to enjoy being boys (children) and not have such a full schedule that they can't enjoy some down time. They are involved in other things like church activities, scouts, and seasonal sports at our local park so we really have to pick and choose and decide what is priority and what can be passed on and be protective of our time. Life can get so crazy that they don't "enjoy" it. KWIM?

I like Crystal's ideas on meals. As far as errands, can you try to do all of them while you are already out and about, like on one of your days you are already out of the house? And then plan for a easy, simple meal that day? I try to schedule all my errands on a day that I am already getting out of the house.

My husband does help out when he can by running an errand on his way home from work or even sometimes during the day if he is able to. He owns his own business which is very stressful at times but also can be a huge blessing. We count it as a blessing that he can do things during the day either to help "the team" or just to have lunch with us during the week. Of course, this is not every day, and I try not to ask him to do much during work hours, but he is always willing to do what he can and sometimes life just works out that way.

With the addition of our 4th child and busy schedules with my other three and their activities, I am trying to find ways to simplify my life as well. I am trying out different things that will simplify our lives. I have tried having a big cooking day and making freezer meals and many times intentionally making enough for one night's meal to have leftovers for lunch and maybe the next night's supper and using the crockpot. I am trying different grocery shopping schedules. Saturdays seems to work pretty well. Sometimes we just go when we can. Many times I have to just make myself go because we are out of milk or bread (the basics). You know necessity is a great motivator. ;) I certainly have not arrived on figuring it all out. Some weeks we just seem to get the basics done and survive, but I do know that finding ways to simplify really appeals to me right now.

I don't know if any of this helps, but I wanted to opine to your post. Maybe something here will help you. You have gotten some really good advice from the others. I have enjoyed reading them as well.

Amy C.

sarah
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by sarah » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:21 pm

Thanks everyone! I really have enjoyed reading and pondering all of this. I really appreciate all the agreement about how school work really does have to be done in the mornings in order for it to happen- hopefully my husband can just come to understand. Maybe we can try him doing some of the errands at times, but we will see how that goes. I also appreciate the balance of perspectives about how much life experiences can be learning at this age. I think there is a balance there, but my scale has tipped a little too much towards the end of the fun stuff. It is very helpful to know that most HSers eventually had to realize that some outside activities had to scaled back in order for academics to be priority. The thought of laying down good routines and habits now does make sense.
Amy C. wrote:I have learned to pray and seek God on what He wants us involved in. When I forget to pray about it, our lives always end up in chaos and then I am not a very "nice" mommy and we are all stessed out. Sometimes stress just happens. I mean there are just some things that we can't control, but sometimes we add it to our lives. Over these last couple of years, I have really felt the need to filter everything through a filter. Does it enrich and benefit our family, homeschool, and life in general or does it just add to our activities and suck the life out of us and our homeschool? That is something that each person has to seek God on and then decide for themselves.

Also, I have learned that there are seasons in our lives. We went through a season where we were able to do outside classes and field trips and such, and we may go through another season where we are able to do those things again, but for right now we are in another season in our life where coop classes are not part of our lives. We do field trips with the group when there is one that interests us and that fits into our schedule, but there again it has to enrich our homeschool not take away from it. This is a constant thing to evaluate, but it is an absolute necessity for me to keep my sanity and be a good mommy/teacher to my dc and a good wife to my dh. Also, I want my boys to enjoy being boys (children) and not have such a full schedule that they can't enjoy some down time. They are involved in other things like church activities, scouts, and seasonal sports at our local park so we really have to pick and choose and decide what is priority and what can be passed on and be protective of our time. Life can get so crazy that they don't "enjoy" it. KWIM?
Amy C.
These are great thoughts. That's the thing though- as long as we don't try to push in the academics on top of the other stuff, we don't really feel in chaos or stressed out. That's why I quit pushing the academic work on those days- because I would end up as a "not nice" mommy too and my priorities as a wife would suffer. So I would just do the extracurricular stuff or whatever you want to call it on these days and be able to keep up my housework, cook, and be nice to husband without feeling like a mad woman. I guess it's just surprised me how it has became that. I really would have thought I would have freaked out about the academics not getting done, but it's became our routine and it's hard to decide what to give up. I mean academics are a priority for me, I just feel sometimes like I can justify pushing the 3 Rs to the back burner too easily because of my son's age (the better late than early philosophy so many HSers talk about) and the fact that the things my son is involved in are educational and enriching.

I almost feel like I can justify HSing to other people by talking about how he is in two homeschool groups and the classes he does at them (even though I know that isn't what matters or why I homeschool internally). I have also used the groups and extracurricular activities to answer the whole socialization/ when does he get to have fun with other kids questions. Like I said, this is made worse because he is an only. I mean I know that he doesn't need these things to be socialized (I mean I am a homeschooler!) but sometimes they are convenient responses rather than trying to convince people that society's ideas of socialization and education are all messed up. I have also sorta used it as a crutch such as "Well, if we don't do our craft for kindergarten today then at least he did art yesterday at group." While I know there can be some truth in things like this at times, I know this isn't the best way framework and I need to accept that I am HOME schooling.

gratitude
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by gratitude » Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:54 am

sarah wrote:Thanks everyone! I really have enjoyed reading and pondering all of this. I really appreciate all the agreement about how school work really does have to be done in the mornings in order for it to happen- hopefully my husband can just come to understand. Maybe we can try him doing some of the errands at times, but we will see how that goes. I also appreciate the balance of perspectives about how much life experiences can be learning at this age. I think there is a balance there, but my scale has tipped a little too much towards the end of the fun stuff. It is very helpful to know that most HSers eventually had to realize that some outside activities had to scaled back in order for academics to be priority. The thought of laying down good routines and habits now does make sense.
Hi Sarah! I agree with all of your quote. I have found that the earlier we start in the mornings the more work we can get done. Once they side track into their own ideas and play it is very difficult to focus them on something like math or reading. Then when the school work is done they can come up with all of those great ideas for play! For me it has been a transition I am taking years to do. Every month we do more morning school than the month before, with the eventual goal of 5 days a week most months of the school year (Sept. - end of June).

I also wanted to add that I too realized that outside activities were going to take over academics quickly last year during my oldest K year. I tried park days, a co-op for 3 weeks, swim lessons, Awana, etc. It didn't work; especially not with four. School would be laid aside too many days. Last March I decided we have to get together our academic routine first and then add in as we can. So last spring we did Awana. This year my oldest played soccer (after school activity) and Awana; soccer ended in October. I am thinking of adding a home school play group near me sometime. I like the mom's idea who started it. She has it in her church gym on Friday afternoons after all the academics are done. Sounds good to me! It also helps that her oldest of four children is age 8 or 9. I am sharing all of this in the hopes that it will encourage you to realize that someone else went through K trying to figure all this out, and I did learn last year that mornings and not too many activities is best.

Oh, I also learned last year that if we didn't start until 10 that it could easily take until 3 to finish with A LOT of breaks; but if I started at 9 we could easily be done by 11. This year 8:30 is even better. I have to catch their ability to focus before they are off in play. As for errands. I do them in late afternoons if my husband is home. We also do them sometimes on Saturday as a family; or sometimes I do them alone on Saturday if I feel I need a break. I also often take one or two kids with me for errands. They love 'alone' time with mom, I like spending time with them, and it is a lot easier to do when DH is home and I don't take all four.

Blessings,
Carin
Last edited by gratitude on Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cyndi (AZ)
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by Cyndi (AZ) » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:02 am

gratitude wrote:Oh, I also learned last year that if we didn't start until 10 that it could easily take until 3 to finish with A LOT of breaks; but if I started at 9 we could easily be done by 11. This year 8:30 is even better.
Ironic, but true. ;)
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MelissaM
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by MelissaM » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:59 pm

Okay, I've been thinking about this a little bit, and I wanted to offer one option which I don't think has been mentioned. (If it has, I'm sorry and just ignore me!)

I don't know how old your K child is, so that might factor, but I really see nothing wrong with just doing this program 3x/week for now - since there are 6 days per lesson, that means you do each unit over 2 weeks, and you get to do each day/read all the books/do all (or most) of the activities, and just enjoy them to the fullest. Since you're locked into your extra-curricular activities for the rest of this year, I think just take the pressure off yourself by enjoying the lessons over two weeks each.

If you decide you want to do some school over the summer, you can make up a little time then, though I don't think it would be really necessary. Use the rest of this year and the summer to evaluate your priorities and decide what your schedule will be like in the fall. Then, in first grade, you can finish up the K program probably pretty quickly, and go right on to the 1st grade curriculum when you're ready.

As far as errands go, I find that I end up doing most of these on Saturday mornings. I schedule our extra-curricular stuff for afternoons; we really have to get to school in the morning, or we don't get it done. (4th grader and Ker here. And a 16 mo-old, who I'm hoping will just learn to walk one of these days. ;) ) I don't love doing errands on Saturdays - especially since I have a part-time job on Saturdays, so sometimes I don't get to do errands until afternoon and then I end up being gone from the house most of the day. BUT - otherwise, I run into the problem of either not getting school done, or messing with the baby's nap - Saturdays alone are the least terrible option right now, I guess.

You know, my dd (4th grade) is working at a 3rd grade level in math. This bothers me SO much. (I don't tell her it bothers me, but it really does.) It bothers me so much that I have tried everything I could think of the get her "caught up" in math. This has caused much stress, pressure and frustration. (More mine than hers.) Finally, I sat down and mapped out what would happen if she just continued at her pace through the math curriculum all the way through high school. Know what I realized? She would be ready for algebra in 9th grade instead of 8th (or maybe it's 8th instead of 7th?). Whoa - earth shattering! Guess what? I took algebra in 9th grade and it was the "normal" thing to do - kids who took it in 8th grade were "advanced." Whew - pressure off. It still bothers me, I admit - but I just keep reminding myself that it just doesn't matter that her book says Level 3 on it - why do we homeschool, if not to give our kids just what they need when they need it? This is where she is.

If you all are in a place where what you want to do is a lot of outside stuff, and less emphasis on the seatwork - well, I think K is the perfect time for that, actually. And yes, routines, good habits - those are all good things to start, but I don't think a kid will have a terrible transition time from schooling 3 days a week, to 4, and then (maybe, eventually) to 5. And there is lots and lots of learning going on, aside from your time at the table - it's all good. No guilt over this - every year there are changes and adjustments.

Now - I think that on the days you are going out of the house, I would still try to do calendar and 100 chart - over breakfast, maybe, or over dinner with dad? They only take a few minutes, and I think calendar is most useful when you can do it every day. Also - 100 chart, I would do just because you're counting to the 100th day of school, and I would count CC and your pe/art day as school days. Totally - they are school days!

I have rambled a lot here - I hope it makes some sense and that there is something helpful.

:)
Melissa
:)
Melissa
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sarah
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Re: I'm behind... looking for encouragement I suppose

Unread post by sarah » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:33 pm

Thanks Melissa! I do appreciate hearing all perspectives. That was originally my thought- well if we go into summer then we can just do 3 days a week and still finish before 1st..... but I am not sure we can. I think we just need to focus a little more. I have decided I will not try to do errands in mornings unless absolutely necessary- my DH and I had a discussion about it and I think he finally gets that that will just not work. I have also made up a morning routine to ensure that we get the most out of the days we are there. Finally, I am committed to doing MFW either on Tuesdays after our classes or sometimes on Saturdays. This means we will have to give up some friend/ fun time, but at least we get to stay in both our groups. I have totally thought about counting our group days on the hundreds chart and doing the hundreds chart and calendar every day even if we don't do the rest of MFW, but I haven't... it just felt sorta like cheating to me. LOL. Plus it has helped me keep up with how many actual days we've did in MFW. But I may definitely try that- my DS is actually not completely "getting" the calendar so maybe that is one reason why. So maybe we will start doing those two things every day because I do feel that at least our CC day definitely counts as "school."

lea_lpz
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Kindy Help

Unread post by lea_lpz » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:21 pm

4monkeyz wrote:Okay, so this is embarrassing, but we are just finishing Unit 6, Turtle for Kindy. &) Oct-Jan has been rough for us, how fitting "I don't quit, I persevere!"

What I need is advice on whether to keep focusing on one letter a week, or should I attempt to do 2 letters a week, tailoring it a bit so we finish by end of May? I've never done MFW K before so I don't know if this is absolutely crazy or not. I figured out on the calendar that we could finish in July sometime with one letter a week. I don't think she would mind going through the summer and it will start getting hot. Thoughts? And how bad is it if we don't finish by the time 1st grade rolls around?? :~
I would not double up and just try to work at a pace that works and plan to finish by the end if summer / early fall depending on what pace you go at. We spent about a week and a half to 2 weeks per unit in k and that ended up working out fine for us. It took about 15 months to complete k from the time we started with also taking about 12 weeks off during those 15 months. I don't regret it. I didn't want my k'er to be stressed out :)
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hsm
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Re: Kindy Help

Unread post by hsm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:37 pm

If it makes you feel any better, we are just starting Unit 11 and we started Kindy the first week of August. We have had a lot of interruptions so it has been a slow year. If you don't think she will mind working in the summer then that is what I would do. I don't like the feeling of being rushed nor do my dc.

However, if you really want to speed it up I suppose you could. I could see a couple of options for this.
1. You could possibly condense day 1 and 2 as the language arts aren't overly heavy those days. And, you could also do the book day/outside day on one of the other days as well.
Or 2. you could just speed it up to make it a 5 day week by doing the 6th day throughout the rest of the week. That would probably be the most feasible as far as speeding it up.

But, if you choose not to speed it up and you finish in July doing one letter per week, I would think that would constitute finishing before 1st rolls around. That even gives you wiggle room for some time off before starting 1st. You could even start 1st a little later (say late August or early September) if you need to incorporate additional interruptions or needed breaks before then. It isn't easy for me but I am trying to embrace the idea that I am on "my" schedule not someone else's.

lea_lpz wrote: It took about 15 months to complete k from the time we started with also taking about 12 weeks off during those 15 months. I don't regret it. I didn't want my k'er to be stressed out :)
And I really appreciate this for my own situation. It is looking like we will have a very long Kindy year and this is encouraging to me. We need to go slow because of outside therapies and my son's needs and I felt guilty for awhile that he might not finish K by May because "that is how it is supposed to be done". Posts like this encourage me and lessen the guilt.
Lori-IL
K/ECC, CtG/Learning God's Story
dd-12, dd-9, ds-6

4monkeyz
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Re: Kindy Help

Unread post by 4monkeyz » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:46 pm

Thank you ladies. I need to hear it. She is 5, going on 6 and I want school to be less stress and more fun. Which it is. I think we will just keep going, work on a letter a week. I also realized that I think I am adding too much and giving myself unrealistic ideals...I need to relax and just rely on the TM. I talked about it with my dh, after doing a full morning of school with the olders, I'm kind of worn out by afternoon. Doesn't help that January/February are kind of long, grey months!! :) So I am going to look at our day and see about either doing K first before big kids (seems this worked the last time I tried before chaos) or making a special mommy time in the afternoon. My kids are growing up so fast! Sniff. Need to spend more time. Thanks again!! I'm inspired. :-)
Andrea ~ Mother of four little monkeys (jumping on the bed!), Wife to one incredibly amazing man & a Daughter of the King.
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hsm
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Re: Kindy Help

Unread post by hsm » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:02 pm

Another bit of encouragement...my son turned 6 in October so he is an older Kindy kid. Someone had encouraged me on this board before that as long as he started the family cycle by 9 [ http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 224#p96221 ] we would be fine. So, if I got Kindy and 1st done in 3 years combined, we were good to go. :-) That helped me tremendously.

And, fwiw, I started doing the kindy work with my son first thing in the morning. He wants to do it right away. I send my olders off to do independent stuff (pet care, violin practice, book basket, handwriting, etc) and we hammer out the K stuff. We don't hurry, but we commit to a certain number of items to be completed at that time. Because he needs a visual schedule to keep him focused, we typically work on 5-6 tasks in the morning. I draw 5-6 circles on a dry erase board and when we complete a task he gets to mark off the circle. He loves doing this. It gives him a sense of accomplishment. Then if we still have more school work to complete we come back to it later when olders are doing independent work again. Or if we don't get to it, I add it to the next day if it is something that we can't or don't want to skip. If I find it isn't imperative, then that's okay, we move on.

I hope some of this helped too. ((hugs)) We are all in this together trying to do what's best for our little blessings! :)
Lori-IL
K/ECC, CtG/Learning God's Story
dd-12, dd-9, ds-6

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