Special Needs - ESL, Bilingual kids,

God's Creation From A to Z: A Complete Kindergarten Curriculum
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Heidi
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:23 pm

Remedial ESL

Unread post by Heidi » Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:49 am

Just Clay wrote:We are planning our for our first year of homeschooling. Our family consists of two sets of "like twins" (our children are adopted and very close in age). My older two (ds7, dd7) will be doing Adventures. I am still questioning what to do with my younger two.

DD will be 5 in July. DS will be 5 in September. If we were to do "traditional" school, I would hold DD back and they would begin K together in the fall of 2009. I am considering doing MFWK with them. I think they are ready for more than the preschool program and I like the idea of the additional structure in the K program. But, as I read the archives, I wonder if I am starting too soon. How feasible is it to stretch the K program into 2 years? Other ideas?
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:44 pm
First of all - I feel an immediate kinship with you. Mine are adopted from Vladimir region of Russia. My first two are same grade/development spans as your two sets even though they are one year more between.

The only thing I really wish to offer in addition is that it may be probable that your second set would benefit by waiting to start together with MFW-K not just for your convenience and their delight to be together - but, my experience with my adoptees is they do tend to be a bit developmentally behind than "normal" even if they are usually just as academically bright. But, mine are from an Eastern European with a background of abuse and neglect - which just simply means they need lots of prayer and more specialized educational methods for them to reach their potentials.

My profile will show the similar plan that Crystal suggested - and I can tell you also from experience it worked.

My oldest then 7 1/2 ds was completing MFW-1 having started in the fall at the usual time. My dd was only 4 1/2 in the fall and only joining in on it until mid-January when she was 5 and 1 month more when I let her begin MFW-K then still joining in with big brother now 8 doing the second half of MFW-1 science, etc. I happen to have a third - who at this time was just happy to be toddling around.

The following year ds did Adventures, and dd did MFW-1 joining in with big brother Adventures science, etc. This year my third one began to stab at pre-K stuff from MFW to help him with his motor delays now being in OT as was oldest for sensory integration deficits.

The last two years we did ECC and I took time out to do remedial reading with my daughter (and to do this we tried an independent program with oldest ds with disaster and came back to ECC with great success), and a year of S-LT that she just finished and who turned out to have mild dyslexia, auditory processing deficits and ADD - and now we realize also has dyspraxia. [

Meanwhile my third continued with OT for a full year and will pick it up again being on the waiting list for his own list of labels (visual processing deficits, visual-motor processing defictis, and sensory integration deficits) to overcome, pre-K the first part of these last two years, then took the last year and a half doing MFW-K and still finishing with him.

I always seem to ramble - but, my point - it has been a very happy experience once I finally realized I was free to lengthen not only MFW-K, but also ECC as well to accomodate and specialize the homeschool needs of all three special learning needs children which is challenging enough. But, I think we are all free to lengthen according to any needs our children have as they make themselves apparent. I was reminded recently by a dear friend - it is one of the beauties of homeschooling.

To encourage myself - and now you - I read again the article by Pam Gates (she works for Diane Craft of HSLDA special needs coord. whose stuff I was re-reading) and how she took time out to do remedial work with her dd (who sounds very similar to mine) to encourage others that this is not taking away from the other children. I also re-read all my FRUA (Families for Russian and Ukranian Adoptions) Family Focus magazines I saved about how to educate with alphabet soup labels - and they all say the same thing. Academics are important, but they do not need to be done at any one particular pace. They are a balance of all areas the child needs to grow to his or her potential.

Point? Fly when they fly, crawl when they crawl - and in the end - both the hare and the tortoise will get there - the tortoise, as you know gets there first in the long run.

doubleportion
Posts: 201
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What would you do for an 8 yr old with a 1st grade educa

Unread post by doubleportion » Mon May 24, 2010 2:31 pm

Caryn wrote:I'm wondering if any of you who have adopted a child (most likely from another country, in this scenario) might be able to help me with this.

Obviously not all countries around the world have great education standards. What would you do for an almost 9 yr old with a 1st grade education? He is smart, and reads well to the level he's been taught. How would you move him forward to catch up with his peers? Thank you!
Just my thought, no real experience here.

But I would think as with any other child folding into the cycle, you could work with him separately on phonics, language and math and have him listen in on read alouds, bible, etc and participate in the crafts, art, music etc.

Does he speak English? Or are you also dealing with a language barrier as well as an educational deficit?

If God has brought Him into your family, He will be faithful to show you how to train up this new child!

:)
Edie

jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: What would you do for an 8 yr old with a 1st grade educa

Unread post by jasntas » Mon May 24, 2010 3:23 pm

doubleportion wrote:Just my thought, no real experience here.

But I would think as with any other child folding into the cycle, you could work with him separately on phonics, language and math and have him listen in on read alouds, bible, etc and participate in the crafts, art, music etc.
Agreeing with Edie.

Is he past 1st or does he still need review? You might start with 1st and move him through as quickly as he is ready for. Then move him into PLL. Or start with PLL if he is ready. I think it is perfectly fine for him to be behind. I believe he will eventually catch up and it will all work out.

You may want to place a call into the MFW office for advice on placement and encouragement as well.
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

Caryn
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:12 pm
Location: MA
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Re: What would you do for an 8 yr old with a 1st grade educa

Unread post by Caryn » Mon May 24, 2010 3:54 pm

I've been thinking about this since I posted my question (haven't you noticed....ask now, think later!? LOL) and I would agree with both of you. I was thinking along the same lines, as well as the adjustments of having a new family to fit into etc. I think you're right. Start at 1st, and move forward as he's ready. Which actually is kind of a "Duh!" moment for me ;)

This question isn't actually for our family, but some good friends of ours who asked me the question. I told her I would ask my trusted advisers :-) So thanks for the input! And I will direct her to the board too, because I'm not the greatest source of information 8[] 8|
jasntas wrote:We were just confirming what you already felt. Glad to be helpful. :)
Caryn
==============================================
dd9, ds8, and ds3 (Speech therapy and pre-k)
Pre-k (twice), K (twice), 1st (twice), Adventures, ECC and currently CtG
My blog: Considering Wildflowers

my3boys
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: What would you do for an 8 yr old with a 1st grade educa

Unread post by my3boys » Mon May 24, 2010 8:36 pm

I have a biological child who is 8 (January birthday) and is just finishing MFW First this year. He has LDs which have given him a slow start, but he seems to have progressed at a normal first grade level this year. I won't try to 'catch him up', we'll just continue in the fall with second grade. In our regular school system here the cut off is Dec. 31 for grade levels, so being a January baby he is only a grade behind his peers. My oldest with LDs is also a year behind. If you think about it in terms of the big picture, is it really a big deal if they graduate and go to college at 18, or 19 or even 20yo instead of 17 - there may actually be some advantages to that.
Alison
Mom to 3 busy boys ages 11, 8, and 6
finished K, First, ECC, and CtG - currently using RtR

Julie in MN
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:34 pm

jhuarac wrote:My dd is now into her 13th week of Kindergarten. This is our first year homeschooling (we began in March to match the school-year in Peru where we work as missionaries) and it has been quite a roller coaster.
Hi Janet,
I'm just going to post some random thoughts because something you said reminded me of my grandson's behavior yesterday, but hopefully moms of littles will chime in this weekend, too.
jhuarac wrote:I am trying to discern the source of my daughter's struggles. She is having a hard time accepting me as her teacher and will push my hand away, grab things out of my hand or cover my mouth when I am trying to explain a new concept or correct her. Is she just resisting my authority? I'm puzzled as she doesn't respond to discipline.
This is the part that reminded me of my 4.5 yo grandson this week as we babysit him. I personally think there's a 4yo thing that goes on at this time (sometimes 4.5-5.5), which is kind of a next level 2yo stage. Kids learn they have new powers, not just "no" but "you can't make me," and other lovely experiments in communication.

I also think with my grandson that sometimes because he loves us so much and has an idea in his mind of the joyful exchange between us all of the time, he feels really bad if he even hints a bit of scolding or even instruction coming from us. His reactions are way over the top and sometimes it takes us a while to think back through the situation and find out where he felt "scolded" (even if it was, "No, put that one over here.")! I would imagine that teaching instruction might feel like scolding to my grandson during this stage in his life. It's a first step in the rest of his life, so to speak :) Something human beings have to learn to deal with, but not all at once.
jhuarac wrote: As she is an only child and was in Peruvian school for 1 1/2 years, she is desperately missing the interaction in school with others, even though we try to provide a few opportunities a week for her to have interaction with other children.
I know that a few times a week wouldn't be enough for some kids. Are there local kids around for daily play? Is their a play area you could visit each evening?

If that is impossible, then I'd make sure to set aside play time with an adult every day. And I'd comfort myself with the thought that all play with other children is not wonderful, and everything your child is missing is not perfect. There was a little girl of about 7 on the playground the other day who hurt my grandson's feelings greatly by ordering him to stop following her and stay away from her :(
jhuarac wrote: Her first problem seems to be her distractability. She always fidgeting - causing her colored pencils to fall on the floor, her chair to tip over, or simple getting up and wandering off to do something else. I continually bring her back to the task at hand. If I am not next to her, coloring a worksheet can take over 1/2 hour.
One surprise to some new homeschoolers is that kids sometimes learn best while moving. My son spent many years draped over an exercise ball or jumping as he narrated ( !! ). He actually learned better that way :) I know some pencil work requires sitting, but I'd try to limit that to the essentials.

And don't forget to provide a place to use pencil (or crayon) with the right posture. You might have to boost a little one up on whatever you have at hand in order for her arm to swing naturally.
jhuarac wrote: Secondly, she is bilingual (English & Spanish). She is very behind in her ability to express herself in either language. Part of this is due to not yet separating out the two languages. Her sentences are mixed with vocabulary and grammatical features from both languages - if someone isn't bilingual, they cannot understand her; those who are bilingual struggle to understand her. I focus a lot on helping her express herself in just English. And, we spend extra time on English vocabulary. I've tried to do a couple of "language experience" stories with her and can't even write the story down because it is so jumbled.

However, her struggles seem to go beyond her bilingualism challenges. She has tremendous difficulty in verbal recall (in both languages). One day she will be able to tell me the word for "red" and another day she is unable. Yesterday I pointed to the picture of "duck" (we are on the "D" unit) and asked her if she knew what it was. She called it a "cua cua" (the sound a duck makes in Spanish) - neither recalling the word in Spanish or English. I tried to prompt her by using a sentence in English: "In the lake we see a beautiful _______ swimming." She gave me the Spanish word. So, I said yes, and the word in English for "pato" is "duck" then went on to help her hear the /d/ sound. This is frustrating for her and sometimes results in sullenness, rebelliousness, kicking at her desk, or throwing things. The other day in casual conversation I told her that I was sorry but I didn't understand what she wanted to say. She got upset and expressed that she was useless because she couldn't talk. I tried to explain that it would take time because she was learning two languages. But I don't think it went in.
I know or work with some bilingual kids plus some who attend immersion schools in 2nd languages, and the English skills benefit from extra work. But I wouldn't worry about that yet. To me at least (not an expert by any means), it seems like it takes time to reorganize the way they think & store memories. Just like when a little one is switching from being nonverbal to using words -- I don't think they have stored much information in "words" right away, so there is a gap as they move from one method of storing things in their brain (and retrieving them) to the new method. It's more obvious when you have a child like my grandson who was nonverbal for a longer time. Many things are in his brain, as he's a great little learner, but they are not stored in words because he didn't have many words on board for the first 3/4 of his life. It's an illiteracy of sorts, but not a lack of intelligence. Do you think that fits with what you see?
jhuarac wrote:How much of all of this is her age? And are we looking at some potential other learning difficulties? If so, should we try to have her evaluated now or wait until she is six. Her pediatrician picked up on how distracted she was back in January (when she turned 5) and suggested that if she was still like this in a year, it would be good to have her evaluated. However, I really need some help in order to get through this school year. Or, should I do something else and hold off on Kindergarten? We will not be traveling to the US for another year (around May 2012). Anyone with experience in this area?
Janet
When my oldest son was about 3-4, I took him to his ped to ask if he had ADD. She sat in the room and watched him. He was moving constantly. I remember part of the time he ran from one corner of the room to the sink, back and forth, a million times. After she was done watching, she said something to the effect of: "No, he's fine. He has a point to his motion. ADD kids move randomly, without control." And she was right. He moved until he was 6 (home videos are funny to watch), and then at 6 he sat down and became a student. So I'd look more closely at her distractability and see how much control she has.


Well, that got long. And it may be fragmented, since I would write a bit and then go help my dh and then come back and write a bit more. But I felt for you way over there in Peru by yourself. So I thought I'd chat :)
Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

cbollin

Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by cbollin » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:30 pm

As I type what I'm about to say, I do not intend to frighten you or scare you, or sound like a horrible person. I am going to be blunt. If it feels rude, please forgive me in advance. Thank you.

If you and I were in the same city.... I'd say this. Please do not wait a year to get the eval or get professional speech/language services started. Please understand, I have a 9 y.o who is autistic and has been in speech therapy services since she was 16 months old.

in order to start sooner, you don't necessarily need a diagnosis. There are things at home you can begin to do.

I would start with the assumption that there is something really wrong. Begin to research on some sensory integration disorders to learn about the falling out of the chair, etc. Two of my top favorite resources for the Christian homeschooler:
Sizzle Bop (Carol Barnier)
and Heads Up Now (Melinda Boring)
Those 2 women bring a wealth of quality information to the homeschool community for sizzle kids like you and I have.


Begin to research some basics of speech/language therapy.

I am not one who likes to try to instruct others on the internet how to discipline. But you might have to tweak techniques in that area. It doesn't mean you selected a wrong way or anything like that, it's just that a lot of commonly used parenting techniques involve a lot of language skills. One of my tools in my parenting box was a book with a misleading title. It is called 123 Magic by Thomas Phelan. It is not a "I'm counting to 3 book". It's not like that. It's about helping the child to learn to listen the 1st time, respond, and then various stages of "punishment". My child (the autistic) worked well with it because there was the "green light" stage (all is well and she listened and did it).. yellow light (which meant she had to do it over and listen), and 3rd time was obviously not doing what she was told and having the red light, sit in the corner away from the action. She hated that. There are many methods of parenting. I'm just saying the one that work for my language delayed child. Granted, I had a LOT of help implementing it as it was the program used by a preschool my daughter attended and she was the only special ed child in the school.

As my daughter's expressive and receptive language increased, she became a much easier child to school. I don't want to go into details on the internet about it. Let's just say I've been there with what you have described.

ok.. The language is a problem. Why do I think that? Because of her age. She has a problem with expressive language disorders. I would research on it. I really think you shouldnt' wait to get a qualified speech language pathologist to help you right now. I dont' know the diagnosis. But, don't wait.


Again, I'm not trying to frighten you. I am saying that my severely language delayed autistic child knows the difference between Spanish and English and we are not a bilingual household. She watches some preschool TV shows that the characters switch back and forth. She can switch.
Also, when I lived i Chicago, I hung out with the Puerto Ricans a lot at my church. I was the White girl. Well, ok, there were 3 of white girls at that church. LOL. I remember the children in the church who were preschoolers had no problem with their bilingual stuff like you've described.

Something is not right.

Father God, please reveal what's going on and show them the way to do it.

on the pato vs. duck vs. quack quack/cua cua sound..... that's a key thing to tell the professionals. She had the sound associated with the word, but struggles with the name for that object. (you might consider internet research on something called Central Auditory Processing Disorders)...

I'm terrified to hit send on this post. I don't want to make you upset or fearful. But I don't think this is a situation that will self resolve. You can still homeschool special needs children.... don't get me wrong on that. But she needs help on sequencing, word recall.

here are some speech therapy sites in English and might have some bilingual stuff too,
superduperinc dot com

try clicking their section called Products, then look through different categories. I don't know what to tell you to begin with. I have to trust God to show that to you.

(((hugs))) I hope I am 100% wrong on it all.
-crystal
Last edited by cbollin on Wed May 16, 2012 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by gratitude » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:07 pm

cbollin wrote:The language is a problem. Why do I think that? Because of her age. She has a problem with expressive language disorders. I would research on it. I really think you shouldnt' wait to get a qualified speech language pathologist to help you right now. I dont' know the diagnosis. But, don't wait.
-crystal
I taught I a little 5 year old bilingual child once that reading about your dd brought to mind. The child is the reason I am posting. I wanted to say first though that Crystal has extensive experience in language therapy that I do not have, and in teaching a child with language delays. I want to validate that extensive knowledge.
jhuarac wrote:Secondly, she is bilingual (English & Spanish). She is very behind in her ability to express herself in either language. Part of this is due to not yet separating out the two languages. Her sentences are mixed with vocabulary and grammatical features from both languages - if someone isn't bilingual, they cannot understand her; those who are bilingual struggle to understand her. I focus a lot on helping her express herself in just English. And, we spend extra time on English vocabulary. I've tried to do a couple of "language experience" stories with her and can't even write the story down because it is so jumbled.
However, her struggles seem to go beyond her bilingualism challenges.
Janet
I taught piano to a 5 year old girl once who was bilingual in German & English. Her home life was 100% German. She was struggling in Kindergarten, due to trouble discerning at all times between the two languages. She was often frustrated, and had trouble concentrating. Two years later she was fine (I taught her through 2nd or 3rd grade). It was my understanding that this can happen to children having to learn two languages at once. I am not an expert though, and I do not have experience with language delays.

However, if your sense as a mom is that her struggles go beyond her bilingualism challenges I do think moms always know the truth about their children and what they are needing. You may want to pay attention to the sentence that you wrote that I put into bold.


Julie in MN wrote: When my oldest son was about 3-4, I took him to his ped to ask if he had ADD. She sat in the room and watched him. He was moving constantly. I remember part of the time he ran from one corner of the room to the sink, back and forth, a million times. After she was done watching, she said something to the effect of: "No, he's fine. He has a point to his motion. ADD kids move randomly, without control." And she was right. He moved until he was 6 (home videos are funny to watch), and then at 6 he sat down and became a student. So I'd look more closely at her distractability and see how much control she has.
Julie
Thank you Julie! I am off topic here, but I loved reading this. I have wondered for years if my oldest has ADD. His pedetrician told me not to worry at his age 5 appointment when he bounced across the room back and forth from door to chair to door to chair. Controlled, directed. He didn't sit down for school work until 7 1/2. Thank you for the reassurance that my peditrician, and my gut sense was right.

jhuarac
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:11 pm

Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by jhuarac » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:02 pm

Thanks to all who have replied - this seems to be a hard one to sort out and I'm appreciating all the input I can get. I feel very far away from the kinds of assistance I might receive were I in the US.

I especially want to reply to Crystal. Thank you for stepping out on a limb and sharing your thoughts with me. I too, hope that you are wrong. But, you have not scared me. Rather you have given me hope - just to know that something might be going on that needs special attention is an encouragement. I have talked to educators where I live, a school psychologist and fellow missionaries who all seem to think it's a stage combined with simultaneous language learning in two languages. I'd agree, except I've had question marks for two years and this past year has had me concerned.

Janet
Janet, overseas missionary (married since 2001)
mother to KP (5yo) - learning two languages simultaneously & was overwhelmed in public school
Decided to homeschool - grateful for those who've done the groundwork

cbollin

Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by cbollin » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:17 pm

jhuarac wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:02 pm
I don't want to put you in a diagnosticians position, Crystal, but I wanted to share a couple more observations. I quickly looked at one webpage on Central Auditory Processing Disorders and what I read very much resonated with me. I'm curious if these things might reaffirm my need to seriously look into getting her evaluated soon. My husband is Peruvian (I'm from the US), so we have a tendency to mix languages in the home. This most definitely impacts our daughter's language learning and use! I am trying to use pure English with her and encouraging my husband to use just Spanish - but it doesn't always work that way. Our dd does understands both languages just fine. She speaks more Spanish, than English. I know of other 5yo's with nearly parallel situations - yet they have separated out the languages just fine.

Our daughter is adopted and we know nothing about the birth parents - she was abandoned at birth. We received her into our home at 5 weeks of age.

She asks us to repeat info OFTEN as though she doesn't hear well - but I'm fairly certain her hearing is just fine. She has always been hyper-sensitive to loud sounds and often blocks her ears in church while we are singing, doesn't like the sound in the shower, and has even told me she is afraid of my voice (when animated or frustrated). Today I accidentally toppled over her box of play dough and play dough toys with a loud crash. I was surprised that she burst into tears, even when I assured her that nothing was broken and all was OK.

Our dd didn't really start speaking sentences until she was three. Yet, we were in the US from her 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 years old - during that time she learned English and forgot Spanish. We returned to Peru when she was 3 1/2 and put her in a preschool (in Spanish yet with a daily English class). The preschool was very noisy and her teacher very disorganized. She did fine for about 3/4 of a year and learned some Spanish. Then in the 4 yo class, she suddenly stopped learning. Her teacher insisted that something was wrong in the home & I explained that nothing had changed. Things just kept getting worse. That's when I decided to home school her for Kindergarten.

Ironically, our dd is doing quite well in learning her sound/letter correspondence (although she only knows about 50% of her letter names). She is beginning to catch on to blending. This is beyond what I thought she'd be able to do. However, there are days and moments of days that she cannot remember the sound~letter correspondence. It's like a light-bulb that is turned on and off. She is just beginning to hear rhyming words - some. I am unable to get her to try to play with rhyming words like "The fat cat sat on the mat". Finally, she is unable to retell a story read to her (unless we have read it about 50 times & then her retelling is quite simple as she struggles to find the words and the grammar to express what she has heard).

Well, I'd best stop rambling. Thanks for any further thoughts you might have.
Janet
I was scrubbing the bathroom tonight and had wondered if she was bio or adopted child and how long part of your family. I was smacking my forehead thinking "what if her child hasn't been in her family for very long.. I could have created panic that wasn't needed., or maybe there is something in that route."

Like you noted, I have no way to diagnose anything. I am just a mom with my kids. and like Carin graciously pointed out, it's possible that it can be a normal path with bilingual.

The super sensitive to sounds mixed in there with expressive language troubles -- if you were state side, they'd look into a sensory profile and probably work with an occupational therapist on some of that. There's a helpful book out there Out of Sync Child (and follow up book, Out of Sync Child Has Fun. That might offer some tips.

One nice thing with learning to read, sounds are more important than letter names. So, I'm encouraged that she knows the sounds of the duck when seeing a picture of it. Maybe that will help with letters as well. Duck says quack (or pato says cau)... Cow says moo... this B says /b/. of course, in English some of the symbols say multiple sounds. One method out there teaches all of the sounds for letters at once and then focuses on just one sound, but let's the children know up front -- it has other sounds too.
She might need longer. But be encouraged that she's learning the sounds. I use to play name that sound game... I'd say Moo and let my daughter point to the picture of cow. I would say "that's right Sarah.. The cow says Moo." and then emphasize cow.
then she surprised me and learned to spell everything. strange child.
maybe some of that would be ok.... can she point to a picture or real object of what you call out? (that's more receptive language, but still important). My daughter used PECS system for a long while to be able to point to words and phrases to be able to tell us stuff. She'd have these little pictures and build a sentence. I want more ice cream please. she'd build the sentence and as she touched each word, we'd say it with her. she got a lot of ice cream in her life. still does. LOL in her case, she did become more and more verbal. still in language therapy 2 times a week.

retell of story:
my dd's therapists started her with very very very short stories. 3-5 sentences on paper and sometimes cards. and go very slowly. and a little at a time. It was hard to retell a story when a child struggles understanding the words Who, What, When.

we worked with puzzles to put them in order. even 3 pictures... Which came first, then next then last. (and simple things.... one picture shows child with dirt on hands, next picture child is at sink, then last picture drying hands.

that's the level my daughter was for story retelling at age 5.

oh wow. this is cool. I was getting ready to try to link to an item on superduper's website. I was looking for the WH question Fun Deck just to let you see what level my daughter started at. But, I clicked on a different item.... check this out
http://www.superduperinc.com/products/d ... spx?id=148
I hope that works
http://www.superduperinc.com/products/v ... id=QCCD560
I can't believe that is in English and Spanish on that CD. that's is so cool.

anyway, this is type of cards that my daughter used in clinic to build auditory memory for short (and I mean short) stories.
http://www.superduperinc.com/products/s ... lePID=FD53
http://www.superduperinc.com/products/v ... FD53&view=
and there are some handouts on the tabs on that page. It says you have to register for those freebies. I haven't done that yet. but I wonder if something in there might encourage you? or gives you some samples to make your own story cards. Even if she's just behind and nothing else is going on, some of the teaching techniques used with auditory processing and expressive delays can help.

(((hugs))) she's going to catch up. You'd doing good stuff with her. It's probably a bit advanced for her right now. I know that feeling. teaching rhyming is hard. Actually, a lot of that describes my middle daughter. She was in speech therapy from age 3-9. not autism.. just very delayed in receptive and expressive language.

and, I don't think I remembered to say, welcome along to the board.
-crystal

mgardenh
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:55 pm

Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by mgardenh » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:18 pm

I'm not Crystal but I would agree with her. You might want to talk to your ped. If you have some other source for eval pursue that. When I read your post I'd thought the same thing as Crystal. I too, have a dd on the spectrum (Aspergers). It definitely sounds like she has some sensory issues (auditory, which would also explain the asking you to repeat. You might try whispering if she asks you to repeat. Sometimes we have to whisper for our dd to hear.

Hope you are able to find some avenue to get her tested.
Mike
DH to Laurel
SAHD (mostly) to
Julia - 10 years old, Explorations to 1850
Alexis-7 years old, Explorations to1850 see her story at
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/alexisg
Have used MFW, k, 1st, Adventures, and ECC, CTG, RtR

jhuarac
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Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by jhuarac » Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:16 am

Thanks Crystal - you have me on the learning path and I will be researching lots these next weeks. We just did both sample "cards" in English and Spanish for the question words. Cool materials to look over. Thanks! She found this exercise easy in both languages - and enjoyed doing it. Success for her is important.

Thanks Mike as well. I just finished whispering to my daughter to not play with my cellphone and to put it back. She obeyed immediately. I'm going to experiment more and see if this fits her needs.
Janet, overseas missionary (married since 2001)
mother to KP (5yo) - learning two languages simultaneously & was overwhelmed in public school
Decided to homeschool - grateful for those who've done the groundwork

Nan
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Re: Difficulty with verbal recall???

Unread post by Nan » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:29 pm

Janet,
My experience has been with my daughter who is also the sort to dump all her colored pencils on the floor and fall out of her chair as much to her surprise as mine. She, much like her very smart daddy when he was young, can only handle one, maybe two chores before she starts forgetting what else I wanted her to do-----or that I wanted her to do something at all. She is very social, but not socially adept quite a bit of the time. She reads and comprehends way beyond her grade level, BUT she absorbs the things she's interested in-----maybe not the main idea. When she retells a story she'll tell in detail about the things that she was interested in and may skip the plot altogther if it wasn't what interested her. Likewise, if I'm saying something that doesn't interest her, she seems to have little discipline to make herself listen. She will repeat the last sentence and be hearing it for the first time. She has a huge capacity to learn and talks all the time. But I can see that if she were swimming between two languages there would be so many more avenues for distraction.

I grew up on the mission field in Africa and I greatly admire your dedication to your daughter. Remembering what it was like as a kid I would say that the emotional, mental and academic agility necessary to slide from one culture, location, and language into another is a lot for a little one. Enough to delay language, I don't know. I don't have any expertise or experience with diagnosed learning problems; I just wanted to encourage you that many of the things you mentioned sound a lot like my daughter. She's a challenge, but I think she's bright and capable and with-in normal bounds. If your daughter is at a point where she wants to say things but can't make herself understood, that'd explain the sullenness and frustration which in turn would make it much harder to open her mind to learning. I would certainly look into whatever you feel isn't right, but I just wanted you to hear of another girl that falls out of her chair and has trouble recalling simple things. ;)

CrystalM
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MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by CrystalM » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:05 pm

erin.kate wrote:Hi. :) So, I've taught MFW K before, and loved it. Loved! In July I was planning on teaching my newly adopted son from Ethiopia with MFW K (the revised edition ... woo hoo!). I just wanted to hear if anyone has experience teaching this program to a child who speaks very little English. We've been using the Lit package with my K'er this year, but the stories are completely lost on our adopted son.

I don't expect his language to improve that wildly by summer ... yes, some, but not enough to follow many of the books or Bible stories. He has an interesting condition of a lost language and silent period ... he was maybe 3 when he was given up for adoption so he never truly mastered his native language, and then he was at an orphanage where another language was spoken, though the children are not engaged with language so he learned basic commands. Now, he's here learning English muddied after two first languages. While most children do immerse well and learn quickly, he has the caveat of not having a base language from which to leap, so it's sort of like he's an infant learning to speak and think in English, which naturally takes him longer, especially given his emotional delays.

I can leave out the literature in terms of anything more than just hearing the language and story aloud, but what about the rest of MFW K? He can identify all of the letters of the alphabet, both uppercase and lowercase, and can identify numbers to 10, on a reeeeeeeeeeeeally good day. He has good control over his crayon/pencil but is still no where remotely near forming letters. He is severely emotionally damaged so I'm not opposed to (SIGH) setting MFW K aside until my next baby comes up the ranks (must.use.MFWK.again) if maybe MFW K won't be the best fit for him given his language. He has little to no retention at this point, and that is our greatest activity right now. Learning self control and concentration, etc. Also, I really don't know his true age. On paper is will be 7 in July, but by teeth and medical he's more like 5ish but developmentally he was aged (in September) at 22 months.

What would you do? MFW K or something less involved until I can get him up to speed for MFW First? Thank you so very much! Such a blessing to have you ladies on this board to sound off ideas ...
I would wait at least a year before doing formal schooling. This will give him a year to develop and learn English better. Even if he is 7 y/o he may start slow but speed up as he adjusts to all of these big changes in his life. Plus by waiting you can figure out any special needs he may have that may change how you will teach him. Continue reading to him and let him join in on activities but don't expect him to keep up with everything.

erin.kate
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by erin.kate » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:13 pm

I'd love to wait a year, but since on paper he will be compulsory age, I won't have that luxury, so I do need to begin him in Kindergarten. Great idea though!
♥Count it all joy ~
Mae 11, Viola 9, Jude 7, & Jack 6
2015: RTR
2014: CTG
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2009: MFW K♥

DS4home
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by DS4home » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:27 pm

As I'm following this thread I wondered out loud, why doesn't she start K to appease the authorities, but stretch it out over 2 years to let him have the time to develop. Use those wonderful K units to build his English vocabulary and work with all the tactile ways of writing the letters to build that skill, etc....
Just a thought from an inocent bystander,

Dawn
Celebrating our 29th Anniversary <3
Amber(HS Grad, Married), Carmen(HS+Col Grad, Married), Nathan(HS Grad, College), & Bethany(10th).

2019: WHL for the 3rd time!
Completed the MFW cycle: Pre K-yr.5, AHL(pilot), WHL, US Hist.1

Yodergoat
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by Yodergoat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:48 pm

That's what I was thinking, too... K stretched over 2 years, so he is "official," but very gentle and focusing on the language development and such. Then by the time he is done, you will get to do K with your younger son, and so you will get your MFWK fix with three years straight of K! ;)
I'm Shawna...
... a forgiven child of God since 1994 (age 16)
... happily wed to William since 1996
... mother of our long-awaited Gail (3/15/2006)
... missing 6 little ones (4 miscarriages, 2 ectopics)
... starting Rome to the Reformation this fall!

cbollin

Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:50 pm

Starting a special needs child of legal age does not require the use of Kindy level curriculum, does it? It doesn't where I live....

Why not write an IEP that is skills based and use developmentally appropriate materials? more specifics in a bit...

-crystal

Julie in MN
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:26 pm

I don't have any experience teaching K at home, or adopting an overseas child. Your post has me thinking, though, based on my own experience with raising 3 children, and 1 grandson, who were all slow to speak.

To me, communication follows a logical sequence, with pointing first, then speaking what you were pointing at, then writing/reading what you were speaking. So teaching the abstract symbols for sounds, before the child is using those sounds, seems illogical. Sure, he can memorize some of them, but I'm not sure he could understand that they stand for sounds? Maybe I'm missing another way to come at it; after all, the deaf community can often learn to read without speaking, but I believe they still begin by knowing their base language - I would have to study their methods in order to get it. In my little mind, it flows in a certain direction.

So to me, your little guy's "language arts" should begin wherever he is on that line from pointing... to speaking... to writing, and just progress forward. Maybe he spends way longer than usual at the beginning of the line, but he may well spend way less time later on, who knows? Whatever you do with him that progresses him forward would be "school" in my book!

And how to move them forward? With my slow talkers, I could see that they were learning constantly, and that their brains were absorbing and recording things just like any other kid - except they were thinking in ways other than "words." Also, I could see that their methods were meeting their needs and their interests at the time, so they had little logical reason to seek out other methods. So I tended to coax them towards wanting better communication. I might get down and look at them as they pointed, and agree using my words first, and then they watched me go get the wanted item. Gradually I'd make it more interesting -- yes, I'll get you some milk; would you like a red cup or a yellow cup? And I'd slowly try taking away the thing that could be pointed at - after saving the empty milk jug to communicate that the milk was all gone, I'd try using just words without showing the jug, maybe first using the exact same expression and a big shrug of the shoulders that I had used when I used to hold up the empty jug. If he's a busy guy like my boys, he might really respond when you used words like "jump," and then gradually jump "fast" and jump "high," with more and more "fun" things that might use words. My grandson responded to dramatic words in the car -- Green means go!!! Whee, we're going down the hill!!! Laughter always went a long way with my boys ;)

I don't know, maybe I over-think things. Or maybe these things are obvious. But my kids didn't seem to talk until they had needs that were complex enough that they couldn't communicate without having a way to express them. And because they tended to be busy (walking at 9 months, climbing, exploring), it might have taken many years before they had an interest !! So for now with your little guy, I might use the preschool materials and get him to respond by following directions, distinguishing colors, and other very early language skills, drawing him toward this new form of communication before you start teaching him the symbols.

If he likes reading but doesn't understand it, can you take it down a notch? My kids liked board books up til Kindergarten, I think. And again, it doesn't mean they weren't learning or thinking. It was just where they were with language. They liked to point and to laugh and to come up with the missing word when I suddenly stopped mid-sentence. I remember they liked those Wild Animal Baby "toddler magazines" when you hunted for a little squirrel or something on each page. But they didn't necessarily like to sit still for a long story at an early age. They'd rather make the story themselves!

Now I do think that math could be started. The symbols for numbers are probably a lot closer to something he uses in his mind, than are the sounds used in forming words. I'll bet the K math would be fun for him, with a little extra effort towards clearly demonstrating the meanings, and checking in his eyes to see if he's getting it. Or even the preschool math activities. Puzzles and early board games like Memory are great math tools. Again, if he's a busy guy, an incentive might be to run and get the number and run back, etc. I think one of the MFW preschool activities is standing on a chair and dropping into a bucket - how fun :) And all of this could be done during a short "school time," so he gets used to the idea that we stop playing for a while every day and get some time with mom for learning special things. And at some point, I think the whole idea of the symbol "1" representing a quantity would transfer over to the symbol "a" representing a sound?

And speaking of busy guys, you said he's learning control and concentration. I used to tutor quite a few kids from Somalia, and they had what I thought of as a sort of refugee mentality. It felt like they'd never learned the rewards of sitting still and concentrating until you proudly solved something. It must one of those things you have to *do* in order to realize the rewards (like giving gifts - who would think that giving away your good stuff would be so great?!). Your son is fortunate to be starting these skills now. I know my boys learned some of that by pointing to the special angles on a puzzle or fitting together toy parts, where I'd turn the toy upside down so they could see what was going on and what part needed to go where. Those kinds of things are teaching that there's "little boy value" in focusing on something, too - it's not just something mommy makes you do :)

Well, that was long-winded, and I'm sure you already do all of these things! I've just always been fascinated with the preschool age and how their little minds work.
Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

MelissaM
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by MelissaM » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:49 am

I just want to give you hugs. I haven't read all the replies, and I'm sure the wise women on this board have offered you much better advice than I could give. My knee-jerk reaction to your post is...grrr, compulsory age! How can anyone expect you to start a 22 month old in a kindergarten program? What sort of work would be expected of him if he were in group school? There must be some way to adapt to his needs and still make it "official." I just really don't know what that would be, in your state, etc. I might contact HSLDA in your shoes, and ask about my options.

Again, just want to give you (((HUGS))). I enjoy reading your blog, your children are precious.
:)
Melissa
DD13
DS10
DS5
DS2

erin.kate
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Re: MFW K with adopted child with little English?

Unread post by erin.kate » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:08 pm

Dawn, That's a great idea. I guess I didn't realize that was an option ... to do Kinder work over two years. I'll definitely look at that option. There are so many things he can do to add to that as well that will encourage his thinking skills. :)

Crystal, I truly have no idea, but you are probably right. I will most certainly do more researching. Thank you for sparking the thinking for me ... and I'd love to pick your brain more, Crystal. ;)

Oh my goodness, Julie. What can I say? Thank you for taking so much time and for sharing all of your experiences! I have to get my girls settled in ... stomach flu! ... then I'm going to respond thoughtfully, but in the meantime I am mulling all of this over. So great to read! Talk soon. :-)

Melissa, You've really made me smile. Thank you. Yes, my husband just said we should call HLSDA and get our facts straight before talking to the state about what will be expected of him next year. You are absolutely right. It's so agonizingly sad that he is expected to be in school just because some woman in Ethiopia completely randomly assigned him an age and he wasn't even standing in front of her. :( An absolute disservice to him, and to us. He is clearly only 4ish, maaaaaybe 5, yet now he's caught up in a sad mess because of one piece of paper. We are working to change his age on paper, but it's a lengthy process in our state. I appreciate the virtual hug. :)
cbollin wrote:Erin, while on the phone with HSLDA, you might want to talk with their special needs department and see what tips they have for fancy paperwork called IEP.
Follow-up: Posted Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:38 pm by erin.kate
I have three home grown children, 8, 6, and 3, and we've been doing MFW from the start (we're currently in ADV). I also have an Ethiopian that we adopted last August. My little boy is between 4 and 6, so we say he's 4 for a little grace in his already very hard existence. I just want to encourage you that your adopted kids will likely soar once they have really good nutrition, consistent love and affection, and a mama who is ever present.

My son came home knowing nothing. NOTHING. Not one single thing. Not one. And ZERO English. It's been 7 months and he is capable of P4/5 work ... he knows his letters, sounds, numbers to 10, colors, shapes, how to color, cut, paste, do puzzles, lace, brush his teeth, shower, etc.

I would say to be real with your needs, of course, like you are, but don't plan too much on the what-ifs of the new-to-arrive kids, even if you "know" them already. We had interaction with our son for 14 months before he came home, and what we envisioned was not at all what it is. Give it over to God and he'll work out the details. Choose what fits your family best in your current dynamic so that you have that solid and comfortable and fluid and the other kids will most likely naturally fold into it all and you'll be able to weave their needs into your daily routine. Best to you as you walk this road!
♥Count it all joy ~
Mae 11, Viola 9, Jude 7, & Jack 6
2015: RTR
2014: CTG
2011: Adventures
2010: MFW First Grade
2009: MFW K♥

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