Handwriting - Ideas for b/d reversals, dysgraphia, dyslexia

Copywork, Cursive, Dictation, Grammar, Handwriting, Letter Writing, Memory Work, Narration, Read-Alouds, Spelling, Vocabulary, & Writing (many of these topics apply to other subjects such as Bible, History, and Science)
my3boys
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Re: Spelling, dysgraphia? pouring my thoughts out on "paper"

Unread post by my3boys » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:12 pm

We use All About Spelling here too for two dysgraphic boys (one is labeled disorder of written expression). They also get Occupational Therapy to help with it.

This year the therapist is teaching both boys how to type and use technology because their skills aren't getting any better with practice and therapy - sometimes it just is what it is and you have to find a way around it.
Alison
Mom to 3 busy boys ages 11, 8, and 6
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1974girl
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Re: Spelling, dysgraphia? pouring my thoughts out on "paper"

Unread post by 1974girl » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:42 pm

I just wanted to let you know that we use Phonetic Zoo. It is all on CD and they make you use headphones. The CD does the teaching and they "collect" cards with the rules as they go along. You are to take the test until you get 100 two times in a row. If it takes you 2 weeks, then fine. There are 15 words...they say 5 and then repeat the rule...etc. Then they spell it for you. My 10 year old LOVES it. I sometimes wonder why I paid $100 for someone to read a rule and a list when I could do the same thing but when she begs to do spelling first, I get it. It says for 4th and up but I have heard that 3rd graders use it, too.

Oh, and my 7 yr old writes just like yours. (Capitals just in the middle of words, messy, etc.) But honestly, I think I have done too much orally with her and she just needs time and practice.
LeAnn-married to dh 17 yrs
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BHelf
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Re: Spelling, dysgraphia? pouring my thoughts out on "paper"

Unread post by BHelf » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:49 pm

Thanks, I'll have to look for those!

Never would've thought the Fonz would be writing kids' books. hehe :)

Brooke
Wife to DH for almost 13 years
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asheslawson
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kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by asheslawson » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:25 pm

Canoearoo wrote:My dd is in K and get is aways getting d b mixed up and f t mixed up. any advice on how to help her learn these?
The one that helps my dd the most for b & d is the one the mfw 1st grade curriculum shows...

I hold my right hand & left hand facing each other...with my pointer finger & thumb on both hands making a circle (like the ok sign) - except the other 3 fingers are straight up & down - it looks like a b & d...however in the workbook there is a picture of the word 'bed' made like this - showing the e in the middle - with a bed shape sketched around the letters. Since she's seen the pic - she just puts her fingers up and remembers the word 'bed', which helps her remember which way b faces & which way d faces. However this is much easier to see the pic the first time then they will remember it if you or they hold their fingers up.

I guess it just doesn't work to try to explain it...
cbollin wrote:how about a visual? here's a link to another forum where someone was asking about the bed and b d. maybe the picture would help others?
visual on bed for b d
-crystal
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him" Colossians 2:6
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TriciaMR
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by TriciaMR » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:42 am

Here are some other ideas...

When you say the /b/ sound, you press your lips together in a straight line (show her her own face in a mirror), so the line comes first in a b.
When you say the /d/ sound, your mouth is open like a circle (again, use a mirror so she can see her own face), so the circle comes first in a d.

(The "bed" trick never helped my kids.)

Same thing applies to p and q if she starts to get those mixed up too.

My children haven't had trouble with f and t, so no advice there. (Well, the only trouble my kids have is starting f at the top or hooking it the right way... Sigh.)

I also think using clay or wiki sticks and having her make the letters 3-D with the clay (and then lay them on a model of the letter) can really help, and then haver her trace over the clay/wiki stick letter with her finger in the correct way and say the sound (not the letter name) as she traces.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
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cbollin

Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:50 am

question: is the child confusing them while reading the symbol
or writing the symbol
or both?
that can make a difference in how to work toward resolving the issue
Canoearoo wrote:reading it
agreeing with trish on any multisensory thing to help trace it properly. remember to look back in the Kindy manual for "proper" handwriting formation where to start and what to say and all of that. trace with lauri letters


Depending on the child and learning styles....
the "f" starts a "face" at the top with curve /f/ /f/ face
the "t" starts a "toe" at the bottom with the curve /t/ /t/ toe
They are very similar -it's a matter of where the curve is placed.
Canoearoo wrote:This is GREAT! I told dd this and she got it right away! Thanks so much!
-crystal

Amy C.
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by Amy C. » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:14 am

The b & d reversal was recently discussed in an All About Spelling newsletter. The article said when teaching and writing the b say (and have the child say) "the bat hits the ball". The bat is the straight line in the b and then the ball is the round part of the b. b-b-bat. b-b-ball. When teaching/writing the d, show the child a door. The doorknob is the rounded part and then the straight line is the door. So you say something like "the doorknob opens the door" as you write or read the d letter. d-d-doorknob. d-d-door.

I tried the "bed" idea in MFW over and over again, which by the way I really liked and my husband thinks is easier to remember than the above idea, but my son could not remember them. I tried the above idea with him and he seems to remember them better. It has only been a few weeks since we tried it, but in this last few weeks it seems to be making a difference. He still gets them mixed up sometime, but not near as often as before. Everyone is different so I guess the above just clicked with him better. That's why I wanted to share it in case that is what clicks with your child.

I have not had trouble with the f & t so I can't offer any help on that one.

Amy C.

cbollin

Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:23 am

Amy C. wrote:. Everyone is different so I guess the above just clicked with him better. That's why I wanted to share it in case that is what clicks with your child.
Amy C.
agree on that. and just feel like chatting......

I'm in the visual mindset that the method in all about spelling would have my brain doing it the wrong way. I would be the one holding a bat and the ball comes at me, therefore the d is the ball and bat. the curve on it is the ball.. and the bat can't hit it on the other side.

and most doors I open, I'd hold the knob and pull toward me, so the b shows me that picture in my mind...
yikes! talk about how everyone is different. yikes..... no wonder my kids are messed up LOL

of course, I never understood the bed either. :~


-crystal

TriciaMR
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by TriciaMR » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:15 am

Reversals are common through 1st grade, so first, give her time.

Second, I do thing talking about how the line comes first and we press our lips together to make a line and make the 'b' sound will help. Also, tracing the letters and saying the sound will help, too.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
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2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
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Amy C.
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by Amy C. » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:32 pm

TriciaMR wrote:Reversals are common through 1st grade, so first, give her time.
I have wondered this about my ds. He is middle of second grade age-wise and grade-wise in other things but finishing up MFW 1st grade from last year. He has some delays and it just takes him longer with a lot of repetition and practice on some things, and I have wondered if he is just at the age for him to "get" it. I am seeing maturity in other aspects. I meant to address this in my earlier post that maybe he is just at his maturity level to "get" it, but I forgot to mention that. Maybe the b/d idea I mentioned just happened to be used at the right time that he would be able to remember it anyway. I don't know. I know the "bed" idea was not working with him. Maybe he just needed a new way of remembering it.
TriciaMR wrote:When you say the /b/ sound, you press your lips together in a straight line (show her her own face in a mirror), so the line comes first in a b.
When you say the /d/ sound, your mouth is open like a circle (again, use a mirror so she can see her own face), so the circle comes first in a d.
I really like this. I am going to try it. Not today since my ds is getting over the stomach virus and is sleeping it off right now, but I do want to try it. Sounds like a good way to help them remember. And, I liked Crystal's idea about the f/t. I will have to remember that in case I or someone I know needs it for the future.

Amy C.

cbollin

Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:07 pm

I was thinking about this thread while in a waiting room today......

of course the "t" toe thing applies for certain prints in books and not in all.
Canoearoo wrote:This is so true. when there is print without the toe in t she has no problem at all telling t from f. its when that toe shows up she is messed up. but the f has a face and t has a toe seems to have fixed that! I went over that this morning and then when she was reading she said it herslef and was getting it. thanks so much you guys!
but, I got to thinking a bit (and that's dangerous for me)... it sounds to me like there are some "visual subtleties" being missed. I would spend time with the student in fun ways (or mostly fun in any case) on small subtle things:

examples: if you have the Kids Puzzle from MFW Pre K, or similar item, use that and have the child out loud describe small changes. This piece has the right arm up. That piece has the left arm down.
Find ways to have the child do "large motion" games that require moving one body part different from others. "do the hokey pokey" for example. Stand in front of you child and move your arm or leg... ask what is different now?

find those "find the difference" puzzles and use those. you know --- 2 pictures that at first glance look an awful lot alike, then, you look closer.

I can't help but wonder if playing those kinds of spot the difference will carry over for noticing those things with other symbols.

try it with shapes: turn the triangle and ask how it is different.

spend more time labeling things around the house with d and b

but, I'm just thinking if your child can practice in large motion, and other stuff, and learn to notice those subtle differences, it will carry over with letter symbols. It's like that for me with how I have to learn to distinguish subtle dance positions when I teach exercise class. I have to look very closely and see if the instruction dvd has the arm going up and then in front, or in front then up... so maybe it will help


-crystal

samandsawyersmom
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by samandsawyersmom » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:46 pm

Hi!

We have the problem with b and d also so I started saying "the stick comes "b"efore the "b"ubble" for b and it has seemed to help but we still get them mixed up sometimes. :~ Good Luck!
Wife to my wonderful husband 8yrs
Mom to 2 wonderful sons 6yrs and 4yrs
2012 pre-school and MFW 1st
2011 K

asheslawson
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by asheslawson » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:00 pm

Wow...the 'bed' pic really helped my dd and every time I hold my two fingers up it helps her remember - now she holds her own up. But I didn't have that trick with my boys when they struggled with the same thing...I taught them what I remember helped me in my 1st grade class (strange that I can remember that - but I remember looking at the letters on the wall and wondering how I could keep those two pesky letters right in my head)!! I thought of the letter 'b' standing and looking out at a balloon so the circle is in front, with the 'back' of the 'b' to it's parent, upper case 'B'. I thought of 'd' as looking back at 'daddy' ant that is why the circle is facing the upper case letter, 'D'. That is probably really weird, but, in my defense, I was 6 when I thought of it & it worked for me and it worked for my boys. On the other hand, it wasn't helping my dd though last year - and the 'bed' trick did...like they say - what works for one doesn't work for another!!
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him" Colossians 2:6
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Canoearoo
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by Canoearoo » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:15 am

well yesterday dd and I figured out that the b is just missing the top of B, so if you just imagine the top on the b then you know its a B. :-)
"I am, I can, I ought, I will". -Charlotte Mason

dd 2004, dd 2005, ds 2008
MFW User Since 2009

Yodergoat
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Re: kindergarter b d f t

Unread post by Yodergoat » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:57 pm

Canoearoo wrote:well yesterday dd and I figured out that the b is just missing the top of B, so if you just imagine the top on the b then you know its a B. :-)
Yes, I was about to suggest that. That was what clicked it for my daughter. Now I look like a Johnny-come-lately and all that!
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gratitude
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1st grade reading question

Unread post by gratitude » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:35 pm

kw4blessings wrote:My dd and I are on Day 33 in the 1st grade program. So far, she is adjusting well to the fast-paced phonics....some guessing, but overall, I'd say she "gets it". The one area she seems to struggle the most with is "b" and "d", getting them mixed up, both at the beginning and ending of words. Also, she will occasionally read a word "backwards". For example, she sees "dog" and reads "god", or sees "pat" and reads "tap". Is this normal or should I be concerned? She's a young 1st grader, just turned 6 in August, but has overall been an easy learner.

Any suggestions for the b & d thing? I know this is a common mistake. If anyone has suggestions/practice ideas or could guide me to the right place in the archives, I'd be grateful!
It is common at 6. My ds7 still switches d and b some, but every month it becomes less. I taught for 8 years before home schooling and saw it so much in 5, 6, 7, and occasionally even 8 year olds that I don't ever worry about it. I have always seen it correct itself sometime around age 7, or younger or a bit older (I had my students over the course of years so had the opportunity to watch it correct itself). If it continued beyond 8 I would then be concerned about dyslexia, but not before; particularly not with number switching or p's and q's and b's and d's, etc. I wouldn't worry at her age.

Erna
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by Erna » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:41 pm

The thing that has helped my daughter with b and d is when you form the letters with your hands and make a "bed.". She knows b comes first and d comes last. If confused, she'll pull out her "bed" and automatically know whether the letter is a b or a d. She'll pull out her "bed" if needed for writing too. Have you ever tried that as a helpful tool?

jasntas
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by jasntas » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:45 pm

Hi Kelly,

I don't post here much anymore just because of lack of time but when I saw your post I just had to say something.

It is true that most kids will work out the b/d confusion by the end of 1st or 2nd but I would still suggest looking into the possibility of dyslexia now and see if your child meets any of the other warning signs. If not, great. Just keep doing what you're doing.

This subject is very near to me as I discovered after many tearful hours of schoolwork that my ds is dyslexic. It was the end of third grade when I finally stumbled upon the idea that my ds could have dyslexia. It was actually one of the moms that used to be on this board that pointed me in that direction.

I didn't start remediation until the beginning of fourth grade. He is now in sixth and it's been a long haul and we still have soooo far to go. I so wish I would have known sooner rather than later.

I'm not trying to scare you and I hope you don't take it that way. I just would hate to see you wait and then try to make up for lost time like we're doing.

My dd is also dyslexic but I was able to catch it by the middle of first. She was actually difficult to figure out only because she was so different from her brother and has much more drive than he does. I realized by the middle of first that she was memorizing EVERYTHING. She got to the point where she couldn't keep up with memorizing every single word. She also would read many words backwards. Was for saw, etc. She still gets her numbers reversed A LOT.

Anyway, she is catching up fast to her brother and I think it's mainly because I caught it earlier with her.

You can check the Barton web site: bartonreading.com A direct link to the warning signs are here: http://www.bartonreading.com/pdf/Dys%20 ... 0signs.pdf

If your child doesn't meet this criteria then I wouldn't worry about it. If this looks like a possibility, I suggest you start looking into it now rather than later. Barton is a great place to start.

Take care,
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
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cbollin

Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:21 am

kw4blessings wrote: Any suggestions for the b & d thing? I know this is a common mistake. If anyone has suggestions/practice ideas or could guide me to the right place in the archives, I'd be grateful!
she's 6. that helps to find resources to help.....

I'd encourage you to read this article to get some big picture on it... you might even find it encouraging to understand part of the "why" behind the flip.. and the article is written by someone with dyslexia who recognizes what those without dyslexia also have this problem. I'm not saying to get her bulldog program and you don't have to get her sample booklet either. I think the article is encouraging for background before you start with practical tips. (I went ahead and got the booklet sample and you don't have to get that.)
here...
http://www.squidoo.com/b-d-confusion

now practical side... what to do to gently correct with a 6 year old.....
not in mfw archives... but here are some tips on solving it.
http://www.allaboutlearningpress.com/ho ... -problems/

wait a minute.... remind us what you used for kindy level teaching? mfw or other? if you did MFW K, and still have that around, you might use the textured letters and blend letter and practice building the words and saying them left to right... especially doing the stuff in the article linked just above. (I'm not saying you have to buy that reading or spelling program either just pointing out a good article to help you.)

with pat/tap... I know I struggle with some things similar to what you've described once my eyes and brain are tired.. ... and it helps me to touch and point to letters and words as I go along. I've done that most of my life. I still sometimes get that way talking... usually a sign I'm tired or dehydrated during exercise class.


the "bed" and "pig" things are commonly used tools to try to help kids have a trick on it... this is one of many places with photos on that
http://www.cometogetherkids.com/2011/09 ... ution.html


that first article I linked? i mentioned that person in the UK has a program. her sample booklet that you have to give over your email to get... has worksheet based activities to play with picking the sound and letter... some of the words would have last letter made larger to draw attention to the student's eye.... you can do that kind of stuff on dry erase board with the reading games in the 1st grade program. I'd encourage you to use those lauri letter or any letter tiles you have, or make some... color code them if you want.

gently correct as you go along. also look for tips/tricks that are about eye fatigue (that's me!) where you move your finger on the page, or have a way to block the rest of the page and focus on the words and sentences just on that line (a blank piece of paper can block, or for some people, having colored paper helps more)

Given that she's 6, I'd start with solutions that work for when it is a normal road bump..... keep on eye on it for the school year. gently correct as you go along... and during reading games time each day, play some games on dry erase to go left to right.... get silly with saying each sound in order...

it could be that she can just easily flip 3D things in her head. an apple is still an apple when it's upside down... but a b or d or p or q.... well.. they change when rotated and flipped....

anyway... I need to shut up.

-crystal

kw4blessings
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by kw4blessings » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:51 am

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I'll be sure to check out these suggestions. I appreciate the help and encouragement on this board!
Kelly, blessed mama to
sweet girl 10, busy boys 8, 6, 3
Finished K, 1st, Adventures, ECC
2016-17 CTG, K, and All Aboard!

MelissaB
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by MelissaB » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:01 am

This helped our girls: the "d" is like a "dog" and it's tail (the straight line) has to go behind it.
Melissa B. (Arkansas)
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cbollin

Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:17 am

Kab wrote:Wow what great answers.

I have a question as well, what about flipping the b and p?

My 6 year old (in December) is flipping the lowercase p and b when they are stand alone but when she is reading words and flips it she will correct herself because the word does not make sense.

My gut feeling is that it will work itself out.

On the other hand I have dyslexia and was held back in grade 6 (still love that teacher who caught it) when it was diagnosed so that I could catch up with my reading skills. Our family Dr says to let it be for 1/2 a year and see where we are and then we will reassess. What do you all think?
I'd be happy dancing if a 5 year old is self correcting the mistakes while reading. Is she using MFW 1st, or Kindy? One of the things I like about MFW Kindy is that those letters get their focus unit at different times of the year.

I don't know it will self resolve, or if it just needs a little bit of extra work.
Personally, I would do a little bit of extra work in gentle ways just because it's not much work and even if it were a self resolve, it won't hurt.

game... on dry erase board, make a line of b's and a p is mixed in there.... take the lauri letter and find the p. help her to hold the letter in her left hand in a way that her hand matches the p. if I had a video, it would make sense. pinch the p at the top so that your thumb is down, like the line on the points down. now match it up on the board!

with b.. hold the b letter from the bottom so your thumb points up.. this might click in their heads or it might not. no guarantee.. it's just a visual there. I tell my exercise customers things like thumbs in thumbs out and it really makes a difference for those who listen.


make another set of lines on dry erase or sidewalk chalk...
top line: a pattern of "b b p"
bottom line a pattern of "p p b"

ask the student to find the pattern that says " b b p"
as they progress from that... go to longer string of letters.... or real words..

again. it's playing spot the difference... 2-5 minutes of a drill game and that's plenty a day... right? she's 5.

get out the handwriting guide and have the student repeat the order of lines to make... call attention to above the below the lines.. find the detail... (that's the kinda stuff in the sample of that bulldog game I mentioned as well as most worksheets out there on this stuff), Have her act out the instructions using her hands, or body.

I know in the exercise class I teach, I have to help my adult customers work on subtle differences in details to prevent injury when holding weights or how they place their feet.. so.. that's where my ideas are from on this stuff with those subtle details....

I'm not a reading expert or even know anything on dyslexia. I know with my children with autism, there were parent screening tools that could have made any child appear to be on the spectrum. So... with any screening tool out there online.... find an expert to help fill in the important details.


-crystal

Kab
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by Kab » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:48 am

Thanks Crystal,

She is doing MFW 1. Thanks for the ideas.

I like the idea of finding the p and d on a dry erase.

Using the Lauri letters is also a good idea.

On a completely different note.

Crystal, I always love reading your answers they always have such wisdom and knowledge. Thank you for your great support to the other mothers/posters.

Kim
Learning to wait on the LORD
Happily married to a great husband.
Mommy to two beautiful young girls.
Working through CTG
Back after a year of Classical conversations
Living in beautiful Alberta Canada
~~~~***><>
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GHOTI

4monkeyz
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Re: 1st grade reading question

Unread post by 4monkeyz » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:39 pm

Wow! What a great set of answers!! Love MFW board. :)

I know quite a few have said this, but I will repeat - both of my older two have flipped letters and my ds has even read words backwards. I worried with him, but my mom encouarged me to have him read aloud, watch to see if he outgrows it and he did. I would say if having a "list" of dyslexia, like things to watch for, might be helpful, then you can know if it is something that needs pursuing. With my daughter who is also 6 and doing MFW 1st the "bed" with her fingers really has helped her. I also will put a small dot in any "d's" but she seems to not need that as much. I also have heard of backpack b and dog d?? But my ds couldn't visualize it so that didn't really help him, I did the dots in d's tummy with him too. :)
Andrea ~ Mother of four little monkeys (jumping on the bed!), Wife to one incredibly amazing man & a Daughter of the King.
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