Dictation - Exactly how do you do this at your house?

Copywork, Cursive, Dictation, Grammar, Handwriting, Letter Writing, Memory Work, Narration, Read-Alouds, Spelling, Vocabulary, & Writing (many of these topics apply to other subjects such as Bible, History, and Science)
DS4home
Posts: 263
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Dictation - Exactly how do you do this at your house?

Unread post by DS4home » Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:21 pm

Linda, TX wrote:We are on our 9th day of ECC and it is all we expected it to be. When the child writes from dictation, do you verbally go over their errors? Do they rewrite it correctly? What is the idea behind letting them make errors first without just letting them copy it? It seems like a spelling test. Maybe you can help me out on my thinking. ??? Thanks,
Linda
I've been studying the ECC TM a lot in my free time! LOL I like the way the Hazell's have explained the dictation process on page 6 of the TM. I have done dictation in the past with other curr. and this is very similar to how we've done it.

On Mon. they do copy it as they look at it and note any special items they may need to try to remember for the next day. On Tue. they look over the verse to refresh their memory. Then take the paper away and do the dictation. Then let them look at the original again and let them find their mistakes by comparing. You can help explain the why's behind some of the rules as they find their mistakes and correct them.

I do plan on extending this process by repeating this on day 3 if they missed a lot of things. If they did pretty well on day 2, then I'm thinking about repeating the dictation on day 3 only not letting them look at the verse before hand, so it's totally from memory of their work from the day before. HTH Dawn

cbollin

Unread post by cbollin » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:06 pm

my3sons wrote:Dictation- We have a handwriting book because my kids need the structured practice in properly forming letters and I alternate the workbook with writing the Scripture they are memorizing. Seems counter-productive to add the dictation from PLL. Also, isn't there writing with the history notebook? That seems like a lot of writing.
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:36 am

Dictation works on different skills than just handwriting practice. It is about sentence formations, using rules of capitalization, punctuation, etc. (i.e. grammar). It is very different to look at something on a worksheet and simply copy it for letter formation practice compared to hearing me say a sentence and write it down.

You aren’t writing in the history notebook *every* day in the ADV program. MFW balances it out over the day and week.

Julie in MN
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Unread post by Julie in MN » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:07 pm

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:16 am

We have done a lot of PLL/ILL orally. I have increased the amount of written work over the 3 years we've used it, but we still don't do even half of it in writing. I guess it depends on what you feel your individual dc needs to work on. Starting in about 5th grade, I made sure ds did some writing every day, but usually only one significant piece. So I would choose between notebooking, Writing Strands, ILL, etc.

Remember that this is supposed to be about a 15 minute lesson, and that Emma Serl was working with a class full of students so she needed different things out of the book than we do.
Julie

RJ's Momma
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Unread post by RJ's Momma » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:09 pm

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:00 pm

We have done some dictation, however my dd has really poor spelling skills and this is very frustrating to her (guess what we are working on this summer:) So I've started writing down words on a dry erase board the words I know she'll trip over (I leave off ones that she 'might' get so that she is really trying), and then let her have that so she can keep going instead of asking me how to spell half the words. Grammar doesn't seem to be a problem. Still, writing in general is very frustrating to her, so sometimes I have her use those assignments as copywork instead of dictation.

Shannon

cbollin

ECC dictation - Start with something easier?

Unread post by cbollin » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:25 am

RB wrote:We are starting week 4 of ECC, so Tuesday will be the first memory verse dictation. My 2nd grader has done almost no dictation, and my 3rd grader only a little from PLL last year. The verse, with quotation marks and such, seems a tricky way to start off.

I'm thinking about dictating simpler sentences from their readers so I can expect them to do it well. We would still do the verses as copywork, though. Thoughts?
On Monday they get to do it as copywork so I'd take some time to point out the quote marks today.

Then on Tuesday, how about something like this idea?
Before beginning the dictation, take some time to notice the punctuation (the dash, the quote marks, etc.) and do it out loud a few times together before starting to write. (That way you are practicing memory work too.) You could keep a list on the side of how many tricky punctuations there are and let them check their work for it. Don't stress the kids out about it -- stay relaxed if they get it wrong. They could try again the next day, or edit the marks in at the end like my kids have been known to do.

I realize this is controversial, but I call out unusual punctuation for my younger child to help her remember. with quote marks, I let my fingers say it for me while making some tongue click noise. I have this memory of it from something like Electric Company (I'm showing my age) or something like that??? And when I was in high school French class (and college Italian too), the teacher would call out some of those things to help us know to put them down during dictation.

-crystal

TriciaMR
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Unread post by TriciaMR » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:43 pm

For my 3rd grader, we go over the verse a couple of times before dictation - we notice commas, quotes, dashes, whatever. I also have a small white board that we do a mini-word bank on for her. (She stresses over large words.)

I give the dictation, trying to pause at commas, etc. I have her read it over when she is done, and she tries to remember the punctuation. Then, I let her look at the correct form and mark her corrections.

We did Abeka last year, and in 2nd grade, dictation is GRADED on weekly phonics tests. This really stressed my dd out. (Can I say, I don't ever remember doing dictation in school?) So, this year, I am keeping it low-key. "Just do your best, and try to learn from your mistakes," is what I tell her. I don't do the verse dictation again. Writing is hard for my dd, and she gets enough writing in PLL and our "writing" curriculum for now.

Just my take on it.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
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RB
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Unread post by RB » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:02 pm

I think I'll see how dd 8 does with the dictation tomorrow, and I like the idea of giving clues :) I think I'll let dd7 off the hook until writing is a little easier for her. This year has already been a big leap for her.
thanks!
R.B.
dd 15 dd 14 ds 12 ds 1
Adventures and 1st ('07/08), ECC and K ('08/09), CtG ('10-'11), RtR ('11-12), Expl-1850 ('12-'13)

cbollin

Re: questions re: dictation of memory verse (ECC)

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:16 pm

Fenni wrote:We tried the dictation of the first memory verse this week. (3rd grader) We broke it up into two days. I know he was very apprehensive about it but he did pretty well.

Do I go over it w/ him and have him correct the errors? That was unclear to me and I'm concerned about him getting the spelling stuck in his head the wrong way. I did have him study the verse a few times before we tried the dictation and I pointed out and discussed difficult words and punctuation. We are using KJV, by the way. He doesn't like to make errors so we will either have tears or he may take it upon himself to study the verse even more to avoid errors. Thanks for any insight.
To help with the things you mentioned (guessing at spelling), I find it helpful for my kids during dictation to have a word bank handy to look up difficult words in the specific passage. I know educator opinions vary on that.
I've even called out punctuation reminders. I have these tongue click sounds that I make for quote marks. And I'll say "comma" sometimes. I mean, my high school French teacher did stuff like that while we were learning, so I do a similar thing. Real life dictations (from when I worked as an executive admin assistant): I got to stop the dictaphone and look up spellings and such. There were times as a department secretary that I had to ask people to spell their names, or to spell a piece of scientific equipment. (most of the professors were nice about it if I misspelled a name on a message -- this was prior to voice mail days and I took real pencil and paper message... but this one guy in the physics dept..... so I figure it is was ok for me in my 20's to ask for spellings and look stuff up, why shouldn't it be ok for a 3rd grader to try it without a reference resource and then use an appropriate resource if needed.)

one opinion that's all

-crystal

KimberlyND
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Re: questions re: dictation of memory verse (ECC)

Unread post by KimberlyND » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:03 pm

I, too, have been breaking the verse into two days dictation with my 3rd grader. He is doing much better than last year but still needs a few hints. If I know it is a word he will have trouble spelling I will remind him of the spelling rule. I wait and see if he gets the punctuation. If he doesn't I tell him where it goes. Usually I have him correct any words he misspells after he finishes the phrase I've just dictated. I will show him the word he misspells so he can see the correct way to spell it. That has been working with him as he doesn't get all frustrated like he did last year. Some days there is more frustration. On those I will give more help.
Kimberly in ND
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dhudson
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Re: questions re: dictation of memory verse (ECC)

Unread post by dhudson » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:07 pm

I let mine look over the dictation several times and then I'll read it to them twice to get the dictation. I do help them with punctuation. Once they have completed the dictation, I look it over and write the correct spelling over the words and then have them write the dictation again correctly. Each of my kids also have a note book of their commonly misspelled words and they have to write the word they misspelled in their dictionary. They have a page per letter. I have found this to be very helpful and then when they question how a word is spelled I have them look it up in their notebook dictionary or if it's not in there the real dictionary.

Just one teensy suggestion, to perhaps use a Bible version for dictation that might not be quite so difficult? I understand that you might have a personal conviction about using the KJV but in terms of dictation and Language Arts, other versions might use more of today's spellings and word usage.
God Bless,
Dawn
http://www.shiningexamples.blogspot.com
blessed Mom of three - 16, 13 & 13
happy user of MFW since 2002

Fenni
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Re: questions re: dictation of memory verse (ECC)

Unread post by Fenni » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:02 pm

Thanks! I wasn't sure how strict I should be so it helps to see what others are doing. Also, after reading your posts, I remembered that we didn't do much dictation last yr so this is pretty new to him.

About the KJV, I thought about using an "easier" version for dictation but it doesn't make sense to me to do it that way. Dh insists on using KJV for memorization, so then the ds would have to learn two versions. I don't think that would be a good situation for him.

TriciaMR
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Re: questions re: dictation of memory verse (ECC)

Unread post by TriciaMR » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:20 pm

When we do dictation, we look over the verse, I mention capitalization, punctuation, etc. I ask my dd which words she wants in her spelling bank. Then I say it to her a section at a time. I do indicate punctuation. After we're done, I have her compare her writing to the original and fix spelling errors. My dd, too, gets very frustrated at mistakes. I try to be very gentle about it. I really don't remember anything in the way of dictation as a kid, myself, but that's me.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
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2018-2019 - College, AHL
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donutmom
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Help--Dictation

Unread post by donutmom » Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:52 pm

How many times do I repeat the sentence for dictation exercises in ILL for an 11 yr. old?? Today we did lesson 102--dictate first 12 lines from "the story of the seed" section. Well, the first sentence I said twice, and he missed 4 words of the sentence (13 total words). I saw that he had, didn't say that I saw, but just asked if he wanted me to repeat it. He said no, he was fine. Then for another sentence he asked me to read it about 7 times--and he still missed a couple words.

What should I expect from dictation? We didn't have this problem in the past years. He's focused on the task. I don't know if it's just the age and moving into adolescence--remembering things in general seems to have vanished??!!! :~ (I've heard that said, but don't know if it's true or just fluff (the adolescence thing)--just know it's happening here. And I know I'm not ready for it--aren't they supposed to stay our little ones forever??!! ;( ) Anyway, how many times is too many times to repeat the sentence? Really, I'm not sure I understand the exact point of dictation, so maybe knowing it's purpose would help, too.

Dee

cbollin

Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by cbollin » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:56 am

just to get the conversation started....


I'm not 100% sure of the goals of dictation without looking it up in some reference thing out there somewhere..... I know that I see some benefits from it. I say it , they say it, then they have to write down the stuff from their heads. It seems to help my kids write from their own ideas later; and to remember longer sentences each time when they are writing from their thoughts. Hopefully it helps them to listen for punctuation breaks and to put those in as well.

so....

Are you having him repeat the sentence out loud back to you after you say it?
If he gets it accurate when he says it, then let him write. Some of the sentences are quite long in that section, and might need to be in sections. (sentence 2 is long).
I probably wouldn't repeat a sentence 7 times. But if it was a sentence the length of the 2nd one, I'd read the whole sentence once, then go back and break that down in parts, say it once, let child repeat that segment, then write, then keep going.
my teaching style: during dictation exercise, I either call out a tough spelling word, or provide a word bank to copy that word, or if I'm sure they are just stuck I remind of a phonics/spelling rule. But sometimes when kids are doing several thought processes at once, spelling is hard and that in turn makes it harder for the rest of the writing.


(p.s. side note.... we didn't do all 12 sentences in that lesson--- we just focused on 3 sentences with quotation marks and making a new paragraph with each speaker)


-crystal

Wendy B.
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Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by Wendy B. » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:38 pm

Missed as in didn't write them....or missed as in misspelled or some other sort of error?

With my olders, I would let them preview the selection. At times I would discuss with them any unusual punctuation or meaning of unfamiliar words but usually I just let them preview the selection and let them tell me when they were ready. I then read it once sentence by sentence. We would then review their work and note mistakes. I would usually ask a question such as "Why do you think the author used a semicolon here" or something along that nature. Misspelled words became spelling words and errors in punctuation or grammar became a review lesson for the week.

My expectation was that they would write the passage correctly and in the process review spelling, punctuation and grammar. Dictation is an easy non-threatening way to stretch their writing and to find out what areas in their writing need reinforcement.

I didn't use ILL with my olders but instead would pick and author to do dictations from for a month or so. It was fun to watch the subtle changes in their writing style from month to month as we changed authors.
Wendy B.
Graduated ds '08 & dd '09
Homeschooling ds 11 & dd 8 using RtR
completed: MFW 1, ADV, ECC & CtG.

momtogc
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Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by momtogc » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:36 pm

Our Spelling curriculum has dictation and their recommendation is to have the child put down their pencil and listen while the parent reads the sentence through twice. The child then repeats the sentence along with the parent, and then picks up the pencil and writes the sentence. If the sentence is long, I would break it into more manageable segments.

I hope this helps in some way. : )

Meleasa
Mom to Gabi, a fun-loving and happy girl!
MFW 1st, Adventures, ECC, CTG, RTR, Exp-1850

donutmom
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Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by donutmom » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:29 am

Thank you all for your advice. I'm going to have him repeat the sentence after I read it. That's a great idea (why is it that the simplest ideas escape us in the midst of frustration??!!). And breaking the longer sentences into parts. (another, "duh, why didn't I do this instead of continually repeating the whole thing??").

Wendy B.--it's leaving out words of a sentence. His spelling is never a problem, and punctuation is usually good. I do think it was due to the length of the sentence.

But it does beg another question. Do I make a big deal out of spelling during dictation? Son 2 is just beginning with PLL, and, well, his spelling leaves a lot to be desired. I will spell the word aloud if he asks (but there are a lot of words he doesn't ask about.) I try to catch misspellings as he's writing (dict.), but there's so many. Then if I make him stop to think about the word, (which he can sometimes then get correct), he's forgotten the rest of the sentence. Do I wait until he's done with the sentence to point it out, or the end of the dictation exercise? I've let his narrations go, thinking spelling there was not the main point. Should I just let him do the dict. exercises as copywork now, since spelling is so poor? He's 8 years old.

Thanks again.

cbollin

Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by cbollin » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:15 am

opinions will vary greatly on spelling during dictation...

I know MFW says in its TM to not give any help with spelling or punctuation during dictation.
I disagree with that position.
Well, I sort of agree with it and sort of don't agree with it. It helps to have that MFW recommendation in context of course. They first say "Look together at the passage, and review.... let the student practice spelling any difficult words as needed." Then they say in the next step "do not give any (further) help with spelling".... on that dictation piece of course.

I agree that it is important to "practice the difficult spelling words" as needed while studying the passage and then do the dictation. But if my child freezes up during the dictation and asks for clues and hints and helps, I provide that help. I call out spelling if needed and they ask for help. I give phonics hints if needed. Use a word bank if needed. at 8 years old that might mean more help than a 14 y.o would have.

and then, if and when I find a spelling that is wrong after the fact, I ask my child to find "1 spelling mistake in this row" and correct it, then take my tips from All About Spelling and have the child analyze the word.

just my opinion and experience and tweak on their recommendations.

-crystal

Wendy B.
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Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by Wendy B. » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:45 am

Sounds like you have a great plan for your older child!

Poor spelling.....sigh....I have some experience with that. My oldest daughter was a very poor speller and I wish I had made a bigger deal out of it at 8 then I did. I just kinda assumed that she would just outgrow ....she didn't and we had to deal with spelling in highschool. You really don't want spelling to be an issue in highschool! I did all the things you suggest ( copywork, spelling the word for her) and neither of them helped her spelling.

What I noticed she would do when doing copywork was to copy letter by letter....My naturally good speller did copywork word by word. If you read CM's how to do copywork they are to "fix the image of the word in their mind" then write the word. So make sure that when he is doing copywork he is writing word by word. I had to cover up the copywork selection to break her habit of letter by letter.

Spelling the word for him is just a verbal version of copywork letter by letter.

So I let her do copywork but made sure she did is word by word.

When doing dictation I just let her write mistakes and all. Then we corrected the spelling. All of the spelling. First I'd ask her to find any errors and correct them. If she did not find them all I would quote a spelling rule and encourage her to find the word that should follow that rule. We kept a notebook with troublesome words. We used Spelling power so we had a section for each of the rules. It also helped to prepare the dictation selection by reviewing the spelling rules for any word that I thought she would have trouble.

We also would work on a selection for a week. Copywork and review spelling rules on Monday. 1st dictation on Tuesday and find spelling errors. Add troublesome words to spelling notebook on Wed. 2nd dictation on Thursday. Review if needed on Friday.

I didn't correct spelling in narrations. I reviewed them and made a mental note of words and rules that I would need to review at a different time.

By all means find the simplest solution for your child's needs. My daughter needed more intervention probably because I let it go a little longer. My older son was a naturally good speller and I really thought she would just "magically" get it in the same manner that he did.

HTH
Wendy B.
Graduated ds '08 & dd '09
Homeschooling ds 11 & dd 8 using RtR
completed: MFW 1, ADV, ECC & CtG.

momtogc
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Re: Help--Dictation

Unread post by momtogc » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:17 pm

I think it is distracting to stop and correct a word when they are trying to remember what to write. When we do dictation, I sit quietly and wait so dd can think about the sentence.

Our spelling curriculum has a writing lesson included. After dd writes the paper (independently), I look it over and write any misspelled words on a little piece of paper. Dd then corrects the word on her writing assignment and we talk about the spelling rules. This would probably work okay for dictation, too. Could you add misspelled words to his spelling lesson the following week?
Mom to Gabi, a fun-loving and happy girl!
MFW 1st, Adventures, ECC, CTG, RTR, Exp-1850

jasntas
Posts: 471
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

PLL Dictation?

Unread post by jasntas » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:34 pm

gratitude wrote:I am preparing myself for PLL, and was looking at lesson 1 & 2. I am planning on starting lesson 1 today. It looks fun!

Lesson 2 question? If I understand correctly dictation will involve me reading the first three sentences and my ds writing them down. The problems that will most likely arise:

1. His spelling is about a late K / early 1st grade level. What do I do? He reads at a 7th grade level, but spelling is something we are going to work on a lot this year.

2. He has a strong dislike of hand writing, although it is getting much easier for him. Allergic to pencils like your ds Julie! :) ;)

3. He won't be able to spell 90% of the words. What do I do? Thank you!
My ds is dyslexic so I don't know if this will apply but what I do is just have him copy the first three lines or whatever.

Maybe you could dictate out of a book you know he could spell most of the words from. Hey, I never thought of that before. I just might take my own advice. lol Just thinking out loud. HTH :)
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

cbollin

Re: PLL Dictation?

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:08 pm

gratitude wrote:Thank you Tammie! Is the word squirrel really a 2nd grade spelling word? Will he get whatever he is supposed to get out of PLL with the spelling issue for dictations?

I did the first lesson with him. How fun. Now I see how this works. I had him answer in complete sentences, and it felt like a real English lesson. This book may prove to be as ingenious as MFW math.
Carin,
This is my "advice" or suggestions.
Study the passage together.
Look at words that you know he doesn't know how to spell.
Make a word bank on paper or dry erase. It is completely ok at this stage to have him look up the spelling, or be given hints to "segment and sound it out".

If it really is 90% of the words at this point, then skip dictation and only do them as copy work. Save dictation for a few weeks down the road after you begin phonics based spelling lessons.

Also, Lesson 2: I do not think it is intended to take one day of work. I think it takes at least 2 lesson days.

No, squirrel is not a word they are supposed to know. That one definitely goes in word bank.

I copied this from my pll guide...
Dictations: Let the child see the book as you discuss the more difficult words and punctuation. Remove the book and then slowly read from the passage. Teach your child to listen carefully. Some children more easily retain the material if they orally repeat the line after hearing it. A young child might not be able to remember all of a sentence. You can break it up into sections if that helps. Some children will benefit from having a word bank for tough spellings. Ideas for when spelling during dictation is causing frustration to the point of tears:
*look over passage before you start. If you see a word that you know they don’t know, have them practice it on a dry erase board or scrap paper. It is ok to refer to that practice paper during the dictation.
*give hints if they ask for help on spelling.

*******
When I was working as an exec assistant, I had to do dictation from a machine. I would type and hear a technical word or something... I'd guess on how to spell it and go back afterwards and correct. So, if I could that as a working adult, I don't expect a 7 year to do all spelling right away in PLL lesson 2 or even higher. Also, in high school French class, believe it or not, when our teacher would has us doing dictation exercise, sometimes, part of the dictation was for us to listen and write the word that she spelled letter by letter (or groups of letters together).

-crystal

Julie in MN
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Re: PLL Dictation?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:32 pm

I never did dictation with my son. I don't think his K-2 teachers did, either.

Hiding now :~
Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
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TriciaMR
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:43 am

Re: PLL Dictation?

Unread post by TriciaMR » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:01 pm

I did this lesson as copywork with my two boys. There is no way one of them is ready for dictation. The other maybe could, but I decided not to.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog

gratitude
Posts: 677
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Re: PLL Dictation?

Unread post by gratitude » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Thank you Trish. This is helpful. It just did not look like a passage he would be ready to do as dictation. He did great though with lesson 1. I am so glad to be starting PLL at last; I have been looking forward to this for months! :-)

Thank you Crystal. This is really helpful. I am going to print it out and put it in the book for reference. Thank you! :-)

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