Math - Saxon includes Geometry?

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dhudson
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Math - Saxon includes Geometry?

Unread post by dhudson » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:31 pm

lisanFla wrote:Hi everyone! My ds is finishing his 9th grade year and Algebra 1 from Saxon. He hates math, but is doing really well. I am looking forward and wondering if I should go with the Jacobs Geometry or go on to Algebra 2 from Saxon. What is the reasoning of adding Geometry? Saxon says all the Geometry he needs is integrated. DS is aiming for an aeronautical or aviation career. Any suggestions? :~
I think that MFW recommends you go into Jacobs because they feel that Saxon isn't strong enough in Geometry. As one who went through Saxon in school, I would agree, especially of you have a child that is considering a math type field.

They generally have thought everything out as well as tested their theories out on their children. :-) You can always call the office if you need more info.
God Bless,
Dawn
http://www.shiningexamples.blogspot.com
blessed Mom of three - 16, 13 & 13
happy user of MFW since 2002

cbollin

Re: Question about Jacobs Geometry vs. Saxon Alg. 2

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:39 pm

dhudson wrote:I think that MFW recommends you go into Jacobs because they feel that Saxon isn't strong enough in Geometry.
and I've heard others (not MFW) who add proof based geometry when using Saxon. I know my dh was happy to see MFW add that in. I'm guessing they think along those math lines with that recommendation.

but echoing Dawn, if you want to know more than that, you can always contact MFW directly if no one pops in with their answer.
-crystal

Julie in MN
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Re: Question about Jacobs Geometry vs. Saxon Alg. 2

Unread post by Julie in MN » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:03 pm

I agree that MFW is not alone in adding a year of geometry to Saxon.

I also agree that formal proofs are probably the biggest thing missing from some high school geometry programs. My oldest son got by without it in public school, but to me, formal geometry is taught as a reasoning skill, so hopefully the student would have strong reasoning skills if they didn't take formal geometry.

Another issue may be getting in more geometry before starting the PSAT (& National Merit Scholarship qualifying). Typically, those tests include middle school type geometry, but a strong basic geometry foundation can be helpful, so maybe that focused year works better?
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
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donutmom
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Re: Question about Jacobs Geometry vs. Saxon Alg. 2

Unread post by donutmom » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:23 am

My hubby and i had a discussion on this last year after our state convention--after I talked with Saxon people. He says, and I quote, "No way can you get enough geometry mixed in among 2 algebra levels." He studied engineering, so of course he was heavy in the math and used geometry frequently. I'm amazed at the things he can still pull out of his head at times. . .related to geometry. 'Course there's many other things that come out of his head that amaze me, but that's another story!! Anyway, since your son is looking into math-necessary fields, my hubby's recommendation would be to definitely do a separate geometry course.

Dee

Julie in MN
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MFW's recommendations re Saxon

Unread post by Julie in MN » Wed May 26, 2010 9:51 pm

apayne wrote:I've been researching Saxon lately, considering switching my boys. I notice that MFW recommends Jacobs for geometry. I also see that Saxon has a geometry program. Does MFW simply feel that Jacobs is better, or was the Saxon program not yet out when the recommendations were made? Has anyone used Saxon for geometry?

Thanks - Anne
I was talking about this with folks at the Wisconsin convention. All of us helping in the booth had rising 9th graders (and current/previous 9th graders in David Hazell's case). A customer in the booth had used Saxon Geometry in her home. The customer was telling us that her son and dh were were math guys and unable to use Saxon Geometry, even after using Saxon successfully for a long time. I did say that I expect errors in all my books, but she gave examples that she felt were more than typos, such as the wrong kind of triangle being drawn for a theory that applied to a different kind of triangle. All-in-all, they didn't know what the problem was, but it just wasn't the same.

David Hazell pointed out that Saxon Geometry was not written by Mr. Saxon, since he is deceased. The Saxon company was apparently purchased by Harcourt, who added the Geometry text to their line. I'm sure they attempted to follow the Saxon pattern, but I know nothing myself and have never even looked at the Saxon book.

I did look at the Jacobs book a lot -- well, you could say that I obsessed over it & bugged David Hazell a lot :~ I was impressed with how many examples of real-life uses of geometry were shown throughout. I also liked the regular algebra reviews. The answer key had I believe 4 sections, not just the answers. One was a teacher guide with pictures of overheads & teacher methods -- don't know how easy it will be to use, but I just felt I'd have some things in there if needed.

Just thought I'd share that while it's fresh in my mind :)

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
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Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
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Pylegang
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Saxon question

Unread post by Pylegang » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:02 pm

ilovemy4kids wrote:Does anyone NOT add the Jacobs Geometry and just use the Saxon? If so, did you find that the PSAT turned out okay? We really don't want to take a seperate year for Geometry. My son wants to do Alg II for 10th, with CLEP PROFESSOR and the Clep in the summer, Adv Math over 3 semesters then on to community college for Calculus. What do you think?
We're not yet in high school math, but I know several families who use Saxon Math who do not plan to use a separate geometry course. They plan to progress like this:

8th: Algebra I
9th: Algebra II
10th: Advanced Math
11th: Advanced Math (continued) and Calculus
12th: Calculus

Here is some information from the Saxon website:

What geometry credit should be given on my child's transcript for Algebra 2 and Advanced Math?Students who complete Algebra 2 can be given credit for one semester of informal geometry (geometry without rigorous proofs). Students who complete Advanced Mathematics can be given credit for one full year of Euclidean geometry. The full-year credit includes credit for completing Algebra 2.
back to top

Do I have to cover the Advanced Mathematics book in one year?No, if it takes more than one day to cover a lesson, don't be alarmed. Average students usually take three to four semesters to finish the book. Keep in mind that the Advanced Mathematics book is a geometry book as well as a trigonometry and pre-calculus book. The book covers more advanced algebraic topics as well.

Because Saxon Math uses an incremental approach, I think it may be difficult to truly experience a truly unified and fluid development of advanced math concepts. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing that might be why MFW recommends using Jacob's Geometry -- so a student can dive into geometry in a more focused fashion. Maybe someone else can chime in who knows more about the high school level math . . .
--Angela
Homeschooling classically since 2000--DS grade 6 and DS grade 4.


Julie in MN
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Re: Saxon question

Unread post by Julie in MN » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:22 pm

I think as far as math skills, your child will catch all of those in the Saxon sequence. If not, you'll probably notice and decide to add in geometry :)

The other "half" of geometry is proofs. They teach a logic skill that is helpful I think with more advanced real-life math. Also, I've noticed that they cement all the math learned in previous years in a new way, by learning the definitions, postulates, and rule type things that govern our math world. Things like the mathematical definition of a line, which really isn't as black-and-white as most math, but is something *agreed upon* in the math world. Or, postulates that have been proven enough times to be considered always true, such as the "Side-Angle-Side Postulate" which basically says that when two triangles have two sides and the angle in between that are equal, then the whole triangles must be equal (congruent). These kinds of definitions and postulates have to become really a part of the student in order for him to get through the proof part of Geometry.

This part of geometry is harder for my strong math student, because it isn't so much computation of problems or even seeing the overall problem that needs computing, but is totally a different part of math. I've wavered back and forth on how far to push this particular half of geometry, but in general I've felt it was worth adding.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
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Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
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Julie in MN
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Saxon Geometry question

Unread post by Julie in MN » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:54 am

4Truth wrote:Since Saxon incorporates geometry throughout the algebra books, does my dd *need* to do the separate year of Geometry?
Back when my youngest was starting high school, we discussed this a bit, and I polled folks at conventions as well LOL.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7273&p=97298#p61754

I think one of my concerns was learning proofs, which is typically a major part of Geometry but isn't part of the Saxon Algebra program, as far as I recall. Proofs are a pain, I admit, but now that my son's in higher math, I think that foundation was important. Even he says he wishes he'd paid better attention to geometry LOL. The proofs involve an understanding of some of the basic logic behind upper math, and the "proof" that some 100 or so theorems and postulates went through before being accepted as stepping-stones in mathematics (resulting in formulas commonly used for volumes, areas, angles, etc.).

My oldest never really got proof-based geometry, as he was in an "integrated" program at the public schools, and he wishes he had more of it under his belt as an engineer now. But maybe those headed in other directions won't need it as much. Logic is always a good skill, though.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
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4Truth
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Re: Saxon Geometry question

Unread post by 4Truth » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:09 pm

Thanks, Julie! I know you and I have chatted about geometry before, but this is a different child. I do wish I'd had more time (and energy) to do more proofs with my oldest, but we were sorta' running out of time and had to just make a decision and run with it. MUS doesn't get to proofs until the very end, and then they're just "touched on". That was good enough for our goals at the time, but I do think a little more time with it would've benefited her.

I have a bit better footing with my younger children, I think. ;)
Donna, with two MFW graduates and the "baby" in 11th grade! %| Using MFW since 2004.

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