Math Discussion - Jacobs Geometry

[cbollin]

DS13 will be studying Geometry next year. We purchased the complete pkg. Actually, my husband is going to teach him.

While he was pre-reading, he read about transparencies in the teacher's guide. Are they not necessary & is that why they were not included in MFW's complete pkg? TIA Jennifer

The transparencies would be great for group or classroom teaching.

Otherwise, the pictures of those transparencies are in the Enhanced Teacher's Guide for an individual to look at. They may not be as large as 8.5 x 11 to use on overhead project, but do seem usable.

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

May we tag on some questions here?

*in the mfw plans, the students aren't told to refer to the section in the Enhanced Teacher's Guide called "lesson plans" or "supplements" by page number and we don't see other reference to those sections either. (the ETG section called Lesson Plans starting on p. 290 is where the transparencies are among other things)

should we ignore those parts, or refer to them as needed for extra guidance? or really is covered in the hard cover text?
We're a bit surprised that nothing is mentioned on those sections in mfw plans.

Thank you.
-crystal and kate

Hi gals,
This is just from talking with David, but it was an especially small convention so there was a lot of time to chat

I was grilling David about what kind of support there would be for using Jacobs, since there are no other boards that I know of related to Jacobs (like there is with Singapore, for instance).

We went through the teacher manual together to see what support was already included. First of all, he pointed out that the teacher book is huge -- it's not just a short list of answers. Then we examined the table of contents & such. We both agreed that it was designed for classroom teaching, but it's there, available to us if needed. I personally felt some comfort in that. Sort of like how you, Crystal, talk about having the Singapore HIG -- that you don't want to get buried in using too much but might want to pull out on occasion?

My impression was that we don't need that huge teacher guide, but it's kind of interesting (for those who like to read, like me ) and possibly useful as a back-up teaching tool? Wondering if anyone else has thoughts?

I have to say that the textbook itself seems very friendly, with concepts introduced in terms of real-life situations (such as building a dam) and then drawing the same situation with geometric figures overlaid, and then just the geometry drawing. I felt I could teach from the textbook itself, if needed. I could picture my son relating to it on his own pretty well...
Julie

[cbollin]

Thanks for sharing Julie.

and yeah, my husband thinks the text looks great and friendly too.

My impression was that we don't need that huge teacher guide, but it's kind of interesting (for those who like to read, like me ) and possibly useful as a back-up teaching tool? Wondering if anyone else has thoughts?

pretty much what my kid and I figured out on our own. we'll see how it goes over the year.

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

When grading the Geometry tests, how do you figure in the extra credit questions? [Third Edition]

For instance, on Test 1, my daughter got 21/23 correct, but got both extra credit questions correct. Do I cancel out the two wrong and say she got 100%; or, calculate her total as 23/25 correct and give her a 92% grade?

Okay, Tracey, walk me thru this. I have 3rd ed. Tell me a page and a number where you see extra credit. Why am I not seeing this

Hi Julie,
In the "Improved Test Bank for Geometry" book, at the end of test one (no page numbers), there are 2 "Extra Credit" questions.

Thank you for helping me find my marbles and put them back in my head

The thing is that those 2 extra credit points are probably the ONLY 2 points in the whole book LOL!

So I'm looking at my son's test #1. This is what I wrote at the top back in September:

20.5
+2 e.c.
--------
22.5 / 23 = 98%


It looks like I gave him full credit for those points, allowing them to make up for other points he lost. I'm sure you could do it other ways. Maybe a good encouragement for that first test?

That's the only extra credit in the whole book? Weird.

Well, at least we know why we were both talking about the same book but weren't seeing the same thing... It does seem odd now, but maybe it was his way of helping students do well on that first test? I suppose you could add some e.c., such as giving some definitions & such?!

Julie

[Julie in MN]

What is the format for Jacob's geometry? Does it have cds like the Saxon books do? Can my child do it independently? I am not good at Geometry and will not be able to help him if he doesn't understand. Why did MFW chose this over Saxon's Geometry with Saxon teacher or DIVE? Just curious.

Saxon Geometry is a new product created by the new publisher, without a track record, and without the original concept of Mr. Saxon. I did meet a family at convention who said it was much different than the other Saxon products, though I haven't seen it myself.

As for video helps and such, I tried a few things. Here is a summary of our experiences that I typed up for someone else.

1. Dr. Callahan has a video supplement for Jacobs Geometry. It was okay, my ds thought he was fun and enjoyed the little trivia bits between lessons (the trivia didn't relate to the lesson). However, I must say that the DVDs were hard to navigate (easier on the computer) and the instruction was minimal. I tried contacting him via email but was answered by a staff member who couldn't help me and suggested I phone Mr. Callahan. I didn't choose to do that.

2. Derek Owens teaches a Jacobs Geometry class, both in person and online. But he also allows access to his website for half of the online class price, if you don't need him to grade anything. He has teaching videos for each lesson, extra notes in his own workbook of sorts, etc. I only used him for a month and a half, and he was very accommodating about what and when I paid, including a generous trial before I paid. He also answers email questions (again I should compile ours to prevent reinventing the wheel -- mostly errata and such).

3. Mr. Jacobs did answer email questions. I don't see this option available any longer, but I still mention this because I think it says something about who he is. He was helpful and seemed intrigued to find his products now have a prominent place in the homeschool market. Similar to Mr. Saxon, Mr. Jacobs was a math teacher. (Mr. Saxon was a college algebra teacher briefly; Mr. Jacobs was a high school math teacher for many years.)

Julie

[Julie in MN]

My ds is going to be starting geometry. I am checking into getting the protractor, compass, and other measuring items as suggested in the textbook. I was wondering if it needs to be in inches or if centimeters would work okay. Living in Japan everything is in centimeters, so I was wondering if I will need to order items in inches. Thanks!
Eryn

Hi Eryn,
I can't remember back that far! But I would think that as long as you have a conversion chart or at least some kind of little ruler with both inches & centimeters, you would be covered even *if* Jacobs uses only inches? It can't be all that much, because most of what I remember is degrees and theorums... Another thought is emailing Mr. Jacobs. I did get a response from him when I did that, although it was a couple years back. I'm sure I could dig up the email address if you find you need it.

Sorry not so helpful, just wanted to say hi I guess,
Julie

[Bret Welshymer]

My daughter used Jacobs Geometry as did a couple of other friend's children. I reviewed the textbook and the answer book today looking at the issue of inches/miles verses metric measurements being a conflict. The vast majority of the books is not asking the student to do the measuring. In most cases a problem that may say inches or miles can easily substitute a metric unit and the answer is not affected except as a unit of measure. In rare cases when the books says draw a line 4 inches long, you can simply draw a line in a similar length in centimeters and still complete the problem successfully. I hope this eases your mind.

[Julie in MN]

I searched this board for any errata lists for the Geometry tests but could find none. Anyone out there think that the answer to question 5b on Chapter 2 test is wrong in the answer key? If it makes sense to type out the question here I can, but I figured I'd ask first since I did see that Julie mentioned something about having an errata list for Geometry.

Hi Colleen,
I heard my name

I have long wanted to compile my emails from geometry and maybe I will do that now that the publisher no longer has a website. I went and dug into them just now and only see 2 (fairly lengthy) discussions and they are regarding chapters 3 & 4 (plus I had some discussions with Callahan & Owens folks, I'll see if they have anything of note).

I have my son's notebooks here and for the chapter 2 test, 5b, he wrote, "If we don't have it, then you don't want it." I didn't mark it wrong LOL, so it must be what I thought was an acceptable answer. It sounds like one of those logic Does that match what 5b looks like now, in the MFW edition?

Julie,
I was hoping you'd chime in! Anyhow, I goofed! The problem we had was with 5d (not b). 5d is, "Which of the following statements is also illustrated by the diagram?" My dd and I both thought it would be Statement #1, but the answer key says that they answer is "Statement #2". What did your son have there?

Well, my son got (5d) wrong. Unfortunately, I no longer have the books, but first ds put "1" and then he put "3" -- by the way, I always gave him a chance to correct his errors for half credit. I got that idea from either Callahan or Owens, I'd have to check. They are two different guys who produce go-along videos and such to help with Jacobs. I bought and tried each, but didn't end up using them for the long term.

Mr. Jacobs was very nice, and now that MFW is publishing his books, MFW may be able to give you the most help? If you go to the MFW math page here http://www.mfwbooks.com/products/M50/60/0/0/1#7th-12th, scroll down to Jacobs Geometry, and click on "learn more," you'll get a little pop-up that says:

• W. H. Freeman is no longer printing Geometry: Seeing, Doing, Understanding. My Father's World has worked with the author, Harold R. Jacobs, to get this book back in print. For the short term the book is available in a spiral bound format as a two-volume set. The content of the book is the same as the hard cover bound edition with the exception of the removal of five questions on page 62 and a few illustrations throughout.

Julie

[MFW-Lucy]

Hi Colleen,

I had our math guy in the office take a look at this problem to see if the answer is correct. #2 is the correct answer. If you would like more information about why it is correct please contact our office at 573-202-2000 and ask for JD.

Hope that helps,
Lucy

[Colleen]

I did call the office for help, but JD was busy. Of course, while looking at it with dd while waiting for a call back, we figured it out. Murphy's law...
Colleen

[Julie in MN]

My son has finished Saxon Algebra 1 and he used the included CD to help him learn the lessons and he did learn much better with it than when he started Algebra 1 without using it. I see that Jacob's Geometry doesn't come with a CD to learn from. Has this been a problem for anyone? Is the textbook easy to learn from?

Thanks for any input!

Hi Jami,
I hope others chime in, but we did use Jacobs half the year so I thought I'd start the conversation.

It's hard to compare Algebra+ DIVE to Jacobs. First of all, Jacobs is a very different style of math book than Saxon -- it's very "conversational" and leads students to understanding through building on explanations. Secondly, Geometry is very different from Algebra, especially when it comes to the "proofs" portion, and it involves understanding logic as much as working with numbers, including stopping to examine some of the basic tenets of mathematics (rather than just memorizing them).

I think Jacobs is a good textbook to learn from and it is well-respected. As for whether your student will respond to his teaching style, it's hard to guess because some students love geometry in general far more than algebra, and some appreciate his explanations which I would describe as conversational/visual, but of course it varies. Is it possible for your family to view it at a convention or expo? Otherwise, there is a return policy if you need to view it at home.

Julie

[gratefulmom]

My daughter is doing Jacobs this year. At first she was dreading it, and worried about it being too hard, but I told her that really, geometry is fun! And I was so impressed with the book, just looking thru it. There's lots of color, and little comics sometimes; also a lot of true life examples.

My 9th grader is doing well. Sometimes she still has trouble with part of a proof or something that doesn't make sense to her, but I've been happy with how much of it I "get" even though it's been a long time since highschool geometry for me. Usually I can look at the text book explanation and get a pretty good idea of what we are trying to do. And if I just don't know I get the answer key, and either give hints or just tell her. I figure if it then makes sense to her that's what is really important.

On a side note, I chatted with the principal/math teacher of our church school about math, and whole they use all Saxon, he said that he really doesn't care for Saxons geometry. I found that very interesting, and figured that the Hazells have done their homework!

Best wishes to you and your son,

Deborah

[Julie in MN]

I recently looked into this at Rainbow Resource, and read somewhere that the Jacobs Geometry teachers guide listed 25 projects using Geometer's Sketchpad software. I'm wondering if anyone's used this, or if it's needed to go with the Jacobs Geometry course?

Are there any other items I should get for geometry other than what's in the MFW Geometry package on the website?

Thanks!

I don't think it's necessary or scheduled by MFW. The Jacobs textbook already has quite a lot of illustration and description. I'm sure some kids would enjoy adding a little software to math class, but I'm not sure how much teacher knowledge would be needed to guide the student?

The extra activities are, as you mentioned, in the teacher's guide. That usually means it's a classroom teaching tool (Jacobs was a classroom teacher), which might not be necessary in our one-on-one homeschool situations.

Julie

[ForByGrace]

Thanks, Julie!

I'll just stick with the MFW package then! :D

[Julie in MN]

Hi! Its been awhile since I have been on here. Life is so busy! I have added a couple of part time jobs along with homeschooling and then life in general.

I have a question about geometry. Jacobs Geometry is not really working out that well for us. My son who is normally an A student is struggling with the tests. He says that he understands it but just has trouble taking the tests. Honestly I don't know if he understands it or not. With homeschooling 4 children and trying to work these PT jobs, I have not found Jacob's to be user friendly so I have not really been able to help him with it that much even though I have tried. It may be a great geometry program, but I am thinking it is not working well for us. I really don't even know how or what to tell you is not working about it for us. I am just needing a little more user friendly geometry program.

Anyone else have this experience? If so, what did you do? Does anyone have another geometry suggestion for us? I want to make sure he understands it. At this point, I am thinking a program that includes geometry with Alg 2 might be what we need for this next school year. Also, my second son will be ready for geometry next as he is doing Alg 1 this year. I am thinking we will need to use something different with him as well.

Can anyone help me out?
TIA!
Amy C.

Hi Amy,
Nice to "see" you here!

I have a few thoughts right off the bat. For one thing, no worries, it is pretty easy to switch Geometry programs in the middle, since they all tend to be fairly similar. You may be able to just go to the same unit in another program. There are some programs now that are designed for homeschooled families that might work, not sure.

On the other hand, since you already have Jacobs, and I'd be curious as to where he's having trouble. Is he doing fine in the geometry calculations but having trouble with proofs?

If the proofs are the culprit, is he having trouble remembering all the postulates and theorems he can use - would a cheat sheet help? (My opinion is that understanding how to use the theorems is the point, rather than memorizing the names, kinda like grammar terms.) Or is he having trouble grading them because his proof looks different than the answer key?

If it's the calculation portion that has errors, then I remember at least one test set that had the domino effect - if my son got the first one wrong, then all the rest were wrong. I actually emailed Mr. Jacobs back-in-the-day, and he admitted that was a mistake to set up a problem set with the potential for a domino effect, so you should give your son a chance to correct all the others after he understands the first one. In fact, I've read of math teachers who give half-credit for each answer that the student is able to correct on his own (just told that it's wrong, or if he uses the answer key then he has to show why his new answer is correct), and I followed that advice.

Geometry is a different egg than most other math. Often kids who love algebra will not love the wordiness of geometry proofs, and vice-versa. Again, I think of it like advanced grammar - understanding the concepts and the foundational sensibility of math is important but in later life, the details can be looked up as needed.

Just some random thoughts,
Julie

[Amy C.]

Thanks, Julie, for your insights. We will go back and look at it again and see if we can pinpoint exactly what the problem is. As usual, with math, frustration takes over and it probably seems worse than it is, but at least with the other math programs, I have been able to help him because the answer keys (or from help on here with Singapore) have been user friendly for me.

It's good to "see" you on here as well!

Postby Amy C. » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:40 pm
My son made a 100 on his geometry test today! WooHoo!!! Of course, he studied a long time before taking the test, but hey, whatever works! I am very proud of him! He certainly needed that 100 to pull his grade up AND to help boost his confidence! We are happy dancing here!

[Julie in MN]

Ok, so apparently I am a big dufus but I can not get the correct answer (according to the Jacob's Geometry book) using my iphone scientific calculator.

My son is trying to find the tangent of a number (Chapter 11, Lesson 4). I have followed the instructions in the book and have googled how to do this on my iphone and am following the instructions but do not get the same answer as the book. We both keep getting the wrong answer. We have tried 2 or 3 different numbers from the book and get a different answer every time.

For example, the book says to key in the number 50 and press the tan key to get the answer 1.1917536. When we do this we get -0.271900611997631.

Can someone help me with this?

Hi Amy,

I opened the calculator on my windows desktop and pressed
50
tan
= (equals)
and the result was 1.19753... just as the book says.

I noticed there was a "DEG" (degree) up near the answer, and I tried pressing that and chose another option (RAD/radian) and got your answer of -0.27....

See if you can change those options?

Julie

[Amy C.]

Awww, that was it, Julie! I had to change the mode to degree then it gave me the correct answer.

I KNEW there had to be an answer to why we couldn't get the correct answer on there!

Thank you very much!

Amy C.

Yay! Glad that idea worked on an iphone, too.

[Julie in MN]

Why are the midterm and final exams not scheduled in Jacobs Geometry?

Hi Michele,
You know, I don't even remember that, but it should be easy enough to plug in those two days during the year. I usually liked cumulative math exams, because if the grade seemed to reflect the overall work of my student, then I just used it for an easy way to give a semester grade, and chalked the previous work up to a learning experience

I did get a reply from the office. They pointed out that the extra tests are really not necessary in a homeschool situation. As I thought about it, I recognized that as one-on-one tutors, we have a lot more information about where our students are at, plus we can stop and build skills and a whole lot of things that a classroom teacher can't do with each student. Makes sense.

And of course it's still easy to plug them into the schedule if we like
Julie

[Texas Gal]

Thanks, Julie! I guess that makes sense. Like you, though, I like those cumulative tests. I see them as practice for college.... I did decide to plug them into our schedule, but - in case anyone else is wanting to do this, too - if you want to have your kids do the reviews before taking the exam (which I do), you're having to plug four days into the schedule, not just two. Still not hard, since there are so many four-day weeks.

Thanks again!