Singapore 2A, Specific Lessons

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cbollin

Singapore 2A, Specific Lessons

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:45 pm

Lesson 10
Andrea wrote:I was working on Lesson 10 in SM 2A (p 28-29) with my 8 year old today. He was really stuck on this.

He is pretty good at math usually (went through Saxon level 3 last year -- I now see the huge difference between it and the mental math of Singapore!) It's pretty disappointing that he was just scraping by without actually understanding this before! I welcome any of your suggestions!
Andrea
I'm wondering out loud on this... is he just not understanding the term "how many more than" when he is doing the problems?

It is ok to use pencil and paper to do the problems. It doesn't all have to be mentally done at this stage. It's ok to write the problems down to help them see the problem they are doing. He's only 8 and at least Exercise 10, #1 shows an equation as an example.

Was he stuck on problems 2 and 3B? Many times kids at this point are still figuring out that "how many more than" doesn't mean to add.

What I did to help my daughter was to drop it down a little:
*I used smaller numbers for teaching it.
If Meihua has 10 apples and Bob has 4 apples, how many more apples does Meihua have?
Then we would draw (or use blocks) and go through the whole thought process out loud together:
*we'd draw Bob's apples (or just use blocks) and then draw Meihua's
*then ask, who has more?
*then we'd draw lines (one to one)
*then we'd see "the difference"

After several practice sessions, my daughter caught on and was able to transfer it to larger numbers that we were not going to draw all of those lines and she knew it meant to subtract. She began to mentally see the Whole and Parts.

I might flip back to Textbook p. 24 (done with workbook lesson 9)

But if he was struggling with the "how many more" -- then it is most likely a "vocabulary issue" of learning that "more" doesn't mean to add.

-crystal

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Unread post by Andrea » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:22 pm

Thanks, Crystal. I used your ideas and we're doing fine! He was solving the "how many more" questions by adding up to find the difference. It works, but is just more difficult. It turned out to be an interesting way to teach these problems -- parts/whole thinking.
Thanks!
Andrea
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cbollin

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:35 pm

Hang in there on the parts/whole thing. In 2B it will really shine through and then in 3A make even more sense with the word problems and drawing bar diagrams.

Great story about the whole parts with my oldest. She had spent many years "solving" equations without thinking about it. Then in her pre algebra book, it wasn't easy to just "change the sign and flip things around". She had to unlearn the methods and formulas that she had done.

At the same time, my middle child had just finished one of the whole parts lesson in 2B. So I taught that 2B page to my 6th grader (who hadn't used Singapore all the way through) and it clicked really fast because it made her slow down to think what the number and signs in the equation were really telling her. It was just one of those other lightbulb moments for us with the "mental processing math" of Singapore.

-crystal

Mommyto2
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Singapore 2A division

Unread post by Mommyto2 » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:57 am

Last year we really didn't use a "curriculum" for math but spent most of the year on math facts for addition and subtraction and started multiplication. I introduced division but didn't really work on it at all.

Of course we did some other stuff but the bulk of the year was review and mastery of addition. He just seemed not to get it and I didn't feel we could move on. By the end of the year he had finally understood addition and subtraction and is now doing well in those areas.

My ds 9 is currently going through Singapore 2A. He has been confidently going through the book so far. In fact he aced the beginning multiplication section and told me it was all too easy.

Then we did the introduction to division. He has no clue to be blunt. We went through the teacher's manual lesson and did the workbook together. He would have gotten almost all of them wrong even though he has almost mastered his multiplication. I explained division is the opposite of multiplication like subtraction is the opposite of addition. I brought out the blocks and we did each problem with manipulatives.

He just isn't getting the connection. This is where we were last year with addition when we just stopped and worked on it every day for a long time.

I know this isn't the way Singapore works so I am not sure if I should stop for awhile or keep going. We are doing the 15 min a day drill and we have been doing division every Thursday. I have mostly just been working on the /2, /3 and /4. He can sometimes get these without help but a lot of times I just help him with the answers to try to input them in his brain instead of test him on something I know he doesn't know.

So, should I stop and work on division concept or keep going and hope it clicks sometime?

Thanks for your input.

Brenda
mom to ds 9 and dd 6

cbollin

Singapore 2A Division

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:48 am

Mommyto2 wrote:My ds 9 is currently going through Singapore 2A. He has been confidently going through the book so far. In fact he aced the beginning multiplication section and told me it was all too easy.

Then we did the introduction to division. He has no clue to be blunt. We went through the teacher's manual lesson and did the workbook together. He would have gotten almost all of them wrong even though he has almost mastered his multiplication. I explained division is the opposite of multiplication like subtraction is the opposite of addition. I brought out the blocks and we did each problem with manipulatives.

He just isn't getting the connection. This is where we were last year with addition when we just stopped and worked on it every day for a long time. I know this isn't the way Singapore works so I am not sure if I should stop for awhile or keep going. We are doing the 15 min a day drill and we have been doing division every Thursday. I have mostly just been working on the /2, /3 and /4. He can sometimes get these without help but a lot of times I just help him with the answers to try to input them in his brain instead of test him on something I know he doesn't know.

So, should I stop and work on division concept or keep going and hope it clicks sometime? Thanks for your input.
Brenda
mom to ds 9 and dd 6
Just a couple of ideas to toss around based on how I tried to do this with my 9 year old who is slow to average.

I’d encourage you to call the MFW office and ask for ideas too. Sometimes it is easier to talk rather than type for some ideas. (In fact, I’d rather talk than type about this one, but I'll try my best.)

I had to adjust the language that I use to teach the concepts when teaching to my child who is now 9 years old. No matter how much I used manipulatives and drawings and all of that, I had to use very concrete language with this kid to help her with anything new. For a long time I was still using abstract language and just had manipulatives in front of us thinking it would click. I wasn't aware that I was teaching over her head, but I was. I had to use very concrete and simple words to help.

I would not start by saying to my child that division is the opposite of multiplication That is an abstract concept that has to develop later after you let them play around and physically “divide” object and get them use to the language of division. It is surprising how some kids just need a simple definition of what it means to divide.

I use simple language when using Singapore with my slow to average 9 year old learner. In fact, I had to define “divide” for her by calling it “sharing equally” and then saying in the same sentence “sharing equally means to divide, so we can use the fancy word "divide" too.”

Let me try to type some of what I do.

In a natural setting (setting snack table for example), I count out a number of crackers and say “I have 12 graham crackers here. Time for snack for us. How many are eating now? Ah, you, me and your 2 sisters. That’s four of us. Let’s divide (share equally, remember?) our 12 crackers so we each get the same/equal amount. Ready.” (then yes, we count off in groups of 4, 1 for you, 1 for me, 1 for big sis, 1 for little sis)
Wow, I have 3 pieces, and so do you, and sis and little sis.

It is at this point that I would just write out with the symbols
12 divided by 4 = 3
And then say while pointing to each number
“We took the whole group of 12 crackers
Shared them equally (or we can use a fancy word here divided them equally) among 4 of us. And we each received (got) 3 of them”

by the way, that method worked great for us when dealing with division with remainders too. But I'll save that for another time.

Then after a day or so later, I would say something simple like “hmm, what if I didn’t know how many crackers I had in the package? And I want to give 3 crackers to each of us. Well, I have to give 3 crackers to you, 3 crackers to me, 3 crackers to sis, and 3 crackers to big sis.
Hmmm. I gave 3 crackers 4 times, didn’t I?

3 times 4 gave us 12 crackers.

And now I would write it
3 x4 =12

And then I would point to same problem and say it backwards.

I would do that for each problem in the text and workbook too using the most simple and concrete language possible until not needed as much. Just my way of teaching a child who struggles with the language of math.

So, anyway, that’s why I’m suggesting making sure your son doesn’t skip the steps of learning the language of division problems before moving ahead to the abstract analogy of it being opposite to multiplication in the same way that addition and subtraction are opposites.

-crystal

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Unread post by dhudson » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:34 am

I'm with Crystal - use food.

I used M&M's, marshmallows, apples with lunch, and pizza for dinner. I found when they had to divide a whole into equal groups (so it would be fair) the concept came more naturally. I made each meal and snack into a division problem that they would have to solve before eating. It was a much more concrete for my twins that way (they are in 2B). We generally don't eat that much junk food in a day but it was worth it to have them have a real incentive to figure it out.

I would make sure your son understood the concept of division before moving on. He doesn't have to have all the facts memorized, he'll be going over those again but the concept is vital.
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Mommyto2
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Unread post by Mommyto2 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:19 am

Thank you. We tried "sharing equally" means dividing and it's amazing how skittles work so much better than blocks!!!

I think he has the concept in general now but we will definately practice more around the house as well as a few more days in school before we move on.

Brenda

TammyB
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Renaming and subtracting

Unread post by TammyB » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:59 pm

ChristyH wrote:My boys, who are 8, are struggling with renaming and subtracting. Is this usual with this age? They seem to understand the concept but still I don't remember learning that until I was a little older. Any ideas to make it easier for them?
Just to encourage you....

When first introduced to the subtraction and renaming in 2A, my eight year old struggled quite a bit. In fact, he shed some tears over it and thought he would never get it. We kept at it (I had to slow the pace.), and by the end of the unit he was doing it with no trouble. We used manipulatives extensively in the beginning, and gradually he didn't need them anymore.

Blessings!

LA in Baltimore
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Re: Renaming and subtracting

Unread post by LA in Baltimore » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:56 pm

It seems that each child can struggle in a different area in math.
One of mine had NO problem with regrouping, etc and then we hit long division!
For us the 2B and 3A books seem the toughest.
I always have them try doing things in their head if that is what the book wants and then we do it on paper if we have a hard time getting the correct answer.

All to say that...although there are tears now, it really won't be forever. Another topic will come along that they may soar in and it will help build up their confidence for the next time those challenging topics reappear!
Only by His grace,
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Practice Reviews - Horizantal Equations

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sat May 09, 2009 7:14 pm

Just Clay wrote:I have two 2nd graders (well, until the end of the week :)). I have two questions:

1) We are going at a much slower pace then the MFW guide suggests. Is it in their best interest to work toward going at the pace MFW suggests or will they eventually be able to go at a faster pace?
2) We are just about to finish adding with renaming, double and triple digit numbers. In the practice reviews (textbook pg 41 and 42), the problems are presented horizantally. The kids much prefer to do them vertically. Is it best to encourage them to do them horizantally or can I feel "at peace" to let them do the problems vertically?

Just wishing I could see down the road a year or so,
Annette
Hi Annette,
In my opinion, you should always present all the different ways of doing problems to your children, and make sure they understand them, but you should allow them to do the problems in whichever way they prefer. That's the way we always did Singapore.

As far as levels, doing just level 1 in 2nd grade is perfectly fine, so you can consider yourself ahead of the game :) As long as your children do math regularly and move forward to some degree, I wouldn't worry. One way to "sit" at a level for a while is to spend more time on math games and working with the ideas using manipulatives, and less time on formal math, until you see things getting easy once again. Over the years, you should really expect some spurts of growth & some almost stagnant periods as new levels sink in, no matter what program you use.

Last weekend, I watched my 7th grade product of Singapore do word problems while my super-mathy adult son was flabbergasted - kinda fun to see it really pays off in the end!
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cbollin

Re: Practice Reviews - Horizantal Equations

Unread post by cbollin » Sat May 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Just Clay wrote:2) We are just about to finish adding with renaming, double and triple digit numbers. In the practice reviews (textbook pg 41 and 42), the problems are presented horizantally. The kids much prefer to do them vertically. Is it best to encourage them to do them horizantally or can I feel "at peace" to let them do the problems vertically?
Annette,

You can feel at peace about it especially on the review problems. I think the book doesn't show those vertically on any of the problems to conserve space on the page. But we transfer the problems to paper or dry erase.

When I see a problem on those reviews that my child can do with mental math techniques taught, then I try to leave it "horizontal" to encourage it. On those pages, problems such as 1A, 1b, 2 b, 2 c, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a and maybe 4c -- I'd encourage my daughter to take the time to review the mental math on those first and then if she struggled, we'd go vertical to work the problem, then review the mental techniques together out loud to "check the problem".

Just another way to do it.

In terms of the pacing --- I agree with Julie. I think you might be ahead of the game really. Some 2nd graders start level 1A and finish level 1B during their 2nd grade year. So, if you're 2nd graders are in 2A at end of 2nd grade, you're doing fine. End point is to aim to reach at least to the end of 5B (or higher) by end of 6th grade. Good job!

-crystal

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Re: Practice Reviews - Horizantal Equations

Unread post by niki » Sat May 09, 2009 8:49 pm

Hang in there...it really pays off. I think going at the pace of your kids' needs is best.

Re: vertical problems it finally connected as my dd grade 4 was doing vertical adding/subtracting of yds/feet and km/m and kg/g a few weeks ago...she just automatically did them vertically - which was so great because she struggled and I always let her set her problems up any way she needed and vertically is NEVER what she preferred. It does click! Same with multiplication and she's fine doing those vertically now too! Yee-haw!

Just our experience. HTH
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Julie in MN
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Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:23 pm

jasntas wrote:My ds is currently in Singapore 2A. He is a reluctant writer and hates when he has to write the numbers in words. Should I require him to write them anyway? It turns into a long, drawn out ordeal and I don't know if it's worth it. How important is it that he can write his numbers in words? He can read them with no problem. What have some of you with reluctant writers done with these types of problems?
I don't think we did 2A, but in general ds wrote on a marker board a lot, and wrote "sample answers" rather than all the answers in many cases -- then we discussed the rest.

Maybe you can sneak in a check during his other writing one day, and double-check that he's writing the numbers out correctly?
Julie
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Amy in NC
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Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by Amy in NC » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:43 pm

I wouldn't sweat it now. It comes back around in 3A and I think it was at the beginning of 5B. (We're doing these 2 books right now, so that's why I reference these.) So there will be times in the future to practice spelling and writing out number words. Of course, each time it comes up they are learning new words, ie. hundred, thousand, million. Sometimes I still skip it with my dyslexic 9 yo.
HTH

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TriciaMR
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Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by TriciaMR » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:13 pm

I think we would alternate. I would write a word, she would write the next one, back and forth. I think I would either have a sheet in front of her with all the number spellings (one, two, three... twenty, thirty, forty,.... hundred, thousand) so that spelling wouldn't be the issue. I like Julie's idea of using the white board. My main thing was making sure my dd was SAYING the number correctly out loud (she OFTEN reverses 24/42 for some reason), as she will write 24, but say "forty-two" and vice versa.

-Trish
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Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by wisdomschool » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:14 am

My oldest ds is also in 2A and also does not like writing! I do have him write them out most of the time (but he does not do much writing in the course of a day--if he did I would not have him write these.....) usually we alternate--he writes one, I write one etc...

Debbie
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cbollin

Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:31 am

I do require that my children write them out. We don't always write each one in the workbook. Like the others have said -- we do it on dry erase board. I'm looking back at my 2A workbook and it looks like some were traced. Some were done by me as a model of how to do it. Some were skipped and instead there are little birds drawn on the page 8[]

So, I look at it as a time to get some extra spelling practice in. yes, they need to know this skill. Usually it is in tiny doses in this book. By the end of 2A in the review #6 and 7 -- they only have to write out 2 of these. So, if you decide that on those pages in the workbook like p. 23 --- if they don't do all of them in one sitting, it's ok. If they don't do that whole page -- it's ok. That specific page, my daughter couldn't fit it on on the blanks to begin with.

I would look at the reason that your son turns it into a "long, drawn out ordeal". Is it that he needs to do it as copy work so that spelling is not an issue? Is the handwriting a problem? Is it just too much on p. 23?

Set a timer on that page -- work hard for 3-5 minutes giving as much help is needed (such as spelling, or whatever), then. give him a tangible reward for doing the work. Show him that on. p. 169, he'll only have to do 2 of these.

so -- show him the rest of the workbook past that horribly long p. 23 (if that is the where the problems with this started) -- maybe he just needs to see that it will not be like this every day.

-crystal

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Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by hsmom » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:28 am

I only required it a couple of times so far. (we're in 4b) I figure if he can say it out loud correctly then he knows how to write it. I usually just have him say those out loud. Now the opposite way (maybe this comes later) I would have him write it. I mean if they give it written in words and he is supposed to write the numerals, I require that to be written down. Or when they break it down, like 6 hundreds 0 tens and 5 ones, I make him write those. I want to make sure he is not forgetting to put the zeros or being sloppy about his place value. Writing is an "issue" for us, so we try not to overdo.

jasntas
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Re: Should I require ds to write numbers in words for math?

Unread post by jasntas » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:36 pm

Thank you for all of your responses. Sorry about the delay. I have been so overwhelmed lately. Dh had knee surgery. I've been doing his work in addition to mine and the first week I was helping him do everything. It's amazing how debilitating crutches (and pain killers) can be. Of course, in addition to the extra work for me everything has been breaking down. The tarp over the dog pen, the washer. We also have experienced many illnesses and deaths. Sorry about sharing. Been bottling it all up and needed a little venting I guess.

To get back to the math issue. Yes, Crystal, it was p. 23. We did the page today while dh was at therapy. (Now I have a better understanding of where you come from when you talk about the dc doing their work on the go). (We also had “school” while in the nursery of our church during one of the funerals mentioned above). He asked me if he could do the first half by drawing a line from the numbers to the correct answer above. Being in the car, I said ok. But the second half of the page where he was to spell the words out himself I had him quote them to me, I wrote out the correct spelling on a white board and he copied it. He quoted them all correctly so I know he knows them. He just may not know how to spell them yet. But to have him spell them on his own would have been a nightmare since, like hsmom said about her ds, writing is an issue for us, too.

Thanks again for all the advice. It helped me feel better about how I choose to address this issue.
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2nd grade math - 2A Exercise 60

Unread post by Julie in MN » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:19 pm

karlafoisy wrote:I have three kids in 2nd grade. We are doing workbook 2a. I believe we are on Exercise 60. All three of my kids divide by simply counting by the specified number up to the total number. So, for 15 divided by 3, they would count by 3 up to 15 and see how many fingers they are holding up. I'm not sure that is the best way for them to learn, but that is what they do, none-the-less. I feel like that way of figuring it out doesn't help them to SEE that they are dividing 15 into 3 groups. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, how have you been teaching your kids to understand which symbol they should use for various math problems. For instance, I have been trying to tell them that if are talking about groups and they know the total amount ("Richard has 15 donuts"), then they would use division, because the answer would be smaller than the total amount. If they are talking about groups of something and they don't know the total amount, ("How many are there all together?"), they would use times. Is there an easier way to teach these concepts? THANKS!
Karla
My personal opinion about Singapore math is that you use the textbook to introduce your children to different ways to solve problems, then you use the reviews to watch them solve problems and perhaps discuss alternative ways to solve them, but that you let them do their math assignments using whatever methods they come up with.

Eventually, they will find that the alternative methods will save them a lot of time and often be more accurate (such as using bar diagrams rather than doing all kinds of multiplication and addition). And because they have been introduced to these alternative methods along the way, they will start using them more easily, sometimes even "discovering" them on their own.

I also hesitate to teach Singapore by teaching methods and tricks, because I think the goal is to think and understand. All kids may not think through math in the same way, but if they really get it in their brain and can generate math solutions, then that is the goal, I think. So if there is a word problem, then the goal at my house would be to just explore what you know and what you need to know, by drawing diagrams, drawing pictures, using blocks, or whatever helps them explore the math situation from every angle. A few times, my son had to spend a long time on something, but I felt it was worth it to let him absorb something new, such as division. We might even stop, or go to the 2B book and do some measuring or something he thought was fun. But once he got it, he seemed to shoot ahead for a while and make up the time.

Just the way it works at our house,
Julie
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Cyndi (AZ)
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Re: 2nd grade math

Unread post by Cyndi (AZ) » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:25 am

When my dd was at that point, we pulled out the cuisenaire rods (singles) and built the problems. It helped her "see" what was going on. Doing the 5's with nickels and the 10's with dimes really clicked with her, too. Just one option -- I have a wiggler, so doing hands-on stuff helps her think.
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cbollin

Re: 2nd grade math

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:39 am

I'm looking at 2A, workbook, exercise 60... and the matching lessons from textbook.

In terms of the question you asked Is it ok to use some finger counting with skip counts to help lock in math facts. YES. I did that. My middle daughter does it. so. on the first part of a page such as exercise 60 (even if that's not the exact page you are on right now, but for explaining)... That's fine to do.

Another thing to do? At this point, start off with some drill work prior to going to the lesson. Spend 3-5 minutes just in drill of multiplication and division. flashcards... etc... your preference. But do those drills! That is part of math.


For the concepts... and word problems. you wrote "or instance, I have been trying to tell them that if are talking about groups and they know the total amount ("Richard has 15 donuts"), then they would use division, because the answer would be smaller than the total amount. If they are talking about groups of something and they don't know the total amount, ("How many are there all together?"), they would use times. Is there an easier way to teach these concepts? THANKS!"

I prefer honestly here. ? That's too abstract in my opinion for this stage. It's confusing me and I've been awake for an hour and half a cup of coffee.

For the 2nd grader in 2A, use concrete methods for this. they will build up to do what you are saying, but they need to go back a few steps for a while. me too...

Go back to the early part of 2A textbook and work on the words "whole and part" and "groups" and "equal"

build these problems, such as workbook exercise 61 and 62. build them with blocks, crackers, chocolate chips, whatever. Have the student build what is said. You might talk about "whole and part". As teacher, read those word problems out loud with them (yes.... even from the workbook that we claim they are to do independently. ha ha ha ha ha hah..)
build together
hand over hand if even.

like Cyndi said.. use C. Rods, or any brand math block or real donuts. (I'd ready for breakfast before heading back to that homeschool convention..... )
Go back to the textbook pictures and see how they are bundled. Build bundles together. and do what is in the problem. Talk out loud with the words in the problem.

then, let the student try the next problem with you there.

eventually, over time... even my average middle child began to see this stuff in her head and know things like "I know the part, I know the whole... and it's equal groups.. so I divide", or "I know the part and the other part and they put it together... so they are adding"

that's what I did with this stuff.

build it concretely from the pictorial method.

keep asking... :)

-crystal

Ohmomjacquie
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: ohio
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Re: 2nd grade math

Unread post by Ohmomjacquie » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:03 am

We recently did multipleication but not Singapore. We used cubes to lay it out then also drew pictures to show for exqmple 5 groups of 3
Xxx
Xxx
Xxz
Xxx
Xxx
Then she would count by 3.

Hth a little!
Jacquie
2012-13 Adventures
2013-2014 ECC & K
Mom to:
Chelsea (9) Hunter (5) Natalie (4) & Alison July 2013
See MFW in action @ http://www.myblessingshomeschool.com

MuzzaBunny
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:52 pm

Using a scale in Singapore 2a - days 42, 43, 46

Unread post by MuzzaBunny » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:50 am

atdawn wrote:I am looking at day 42 and 43 and day 46. Is there one scale that covers everything we need? I've looked online and find a scale that I think would work for heavier items but not the smaller stuff in day 43. I'm also assuming its important to use an analog scale. The only scale I currently have is a kinda cheapo bathroom scale that won't be too exact. I don't mind buying what we need since I have 3 additional kids who will use it later but just don't want to have to store more stuff than necessary!

Thanks for any ideas on how you covered this info!
Rachel
We used a little homemade scale made from a coat hanger and two butter tubs! It gave a fine representation of which item was heavier and the exact weight wouldn't have mattered to dd. I can't recall needing anything else? If we did, we would've used our baby scale that registers pounds and ounces.

Editor's Note:
- Conversations about 1st grade homemade scale: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 704#p78704
- Just above this post, a post about simply clipping items directly to the coat hangar: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 817#p42817
- Weights and Measures thread: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6742
- Thinking ahead if you decide to make a purchase, Singapore 3A: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 764#p61755
Bunny

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