Saxon 8/7 - Help With Specific Lessons, Errata

Issues specific to teaching 6th to 8th graders, including the transition to Saxon math, Apologia science, Progeny Press guides, and grammar lessons
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4littlehearts
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Saxon 8/7 - Help With Specific Lessons, Errata

Unread post by 4littlehearts » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:27 am

Errata
Lesson 36 #14b.
My dd could not figure out what number or fraction she was supposed to write the prime factorization of. When I looked in the Solutions manual it seems that she was supposed to do that for 144/600. Where did that fraction come from? [It's missing from student book.]

She was correct in the first part of the problem (14 a.), but she could not figure out what she was supposed to write the prime factorization of and I do not see how 144/600 fits in. Any help in understanding would be appreciated.

cbollin

Re: Saxon 8/7 Math users ??? Lesson 36 #14b.

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:36 am

hmmm.. maybe a misprint in your edition?

my edition of 8/7, lesson 36, 14b (p. 248), does say:
Write the prime factorization and reduce: 144/600

my daughter wrote (this was 2 years ago)
2*2*2*2*3*3
2*2*3*5*5*2

then crossed out groups of 2s and 3's and was left with
2*3
5*5

or 6/25

4littlehearts
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Re: Saxon 8/7 Math users ??? Lesson 36 #14b.

Unread post by 4littlehearts » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:53 am

So it actually had 144/600 in the student book. We must have a misprint is our book then. Thanks!

TriciaMR
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Saxon 8/7 - Specific lessons

Unread post by TriciaMR » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:14 pm

Problem 20 on Lesson 68 (pg. 469) - I see it now!

Okay,
So far I've been able to "see" why/how they do every saxon problem, until this one.

This is Problem 20 on Lesson 68 (pg. 469). It shows a parallelogram with a 60 degree corner and then the parallelogram is divided in half across the other two corners. Then we're suppose to find the angles. The solution in the book for question a shows 90/2 = 45, which is fine, but WHY did they choose 90 degrees? There are no markings saying what any of the other corners angles are? I looked back at the two lessons that the problem references and I don't get it. I know about opposite interior and all that, and none of that tells me why the solution is 90/2...

Please help me understand WHY! I can do the math once I understand why.

Postby TriciaMR » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:10 pm
Oh, never mind. I see it now... There are two angles that are congruent - which means they add up to 90 degrees.
=Trish
Julie in MN wrote:Hi Trish <wave>
glad you figured it out, that's always so fun! Maybe your discovery will help someone else, who knows?!
Julie
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TriciaMR
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Math question - Absolute Value

Unread post by TriciaMR » Mon May 06, 2013 4:01 pm

Amy C. wrote:Could someone please remind me why |-5| becomes a +5 as in the below problem (from Saxon)?

(-3)(-2)-(2)(-3)-(-8)+(-2)(-3)+ |-5|

My ds missed it because he didn't change the |-5| to +5. I looked back in his book and could not find an explanation. It probably is there. I just can't find it. I vaguely remember learning about this in school, but can't remember what this is called. I told him when he has the |-#| to change to +#, but I would like to know the correct term, the meaning of the function, if anyone can help me with that.

Thanks!
Amy C.
The bars mean "the absolute of negative 5" - really meaning the distance from 0 (direction from 0 doesn't matter, just distance from 0). I just always told my self the absolute value bars always make the number positive. And if it is already positive, then it stays positive.

(You must be the same place we are in 8/7 - my dd had that problem today, too!)
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
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Amy C.
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Re: Math question

Unread post by Amy C. » Mon May 06, 2013 4:14 pm

Thanks, Trish! I am not sure I remember the term. I think I just told myself the same thing you told yourself about it. I just forgot! :-)

Yes, sounds like our children are at the same place. Thanks for the help!
Amy C.

Julie in MN
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Saxon 87, Lesson 17, Lesson Practice, letter F

Unread post by Julie in MN » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:43 pm

asheslawson wrote:Saxon 87 Solution manual errors? Is there a place to find errors?

Saxon 87, Lesson 17, Lesson Practice, letter F

Angle AOB appears to be 23 degrees to me - but the solution manual has 16??? Is there a website where solution manual errors are listed, because sometimes I'm not sure if it is truly a printing error in the solution manual or if I'm truly not looking at the problem correctly!
Well, there are errata in the Archives but on this one, it's tiny -- only one!
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10097

Saxon also has a small one, and I am not seeing yours there:
Saxon 8/6 3rd ed: http://hmhco-v1.prod.webpr.hmhco.com/~/ ... .pdf?la=en

Saxon Algebra 1, 3rd ed. http://hmhco-v1.prod.webpr.hmhco.com/~/ ... .pdf?la=en

Saxon Algebra 2, 3rd ed. http://hmhco-v1.prod.webpr.hmhco.com/~/ ... .pdf?la=en

Also, there is help with some tough problems, but again only one:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13705

Based on that conversation, I'd wonder if you are "measuring" the angle, or whether you are calculating it based on the measurements given of other portions of the diagram? That's totally not based on having the book here or anything LOL.

Hopefully someone else can help you more!
Julie
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asheslawson
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Re: Saxon 87, Lesson 17, Lesson Practice, letter F

Unread post by asheslawson » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:32 am

Julie in MN wrote:Someone else who has the book on hand noticed our conversation and had a suggestion for you.

Lesson 17 Warm Up, the answer for F is 16.
Lesson Practice section, which I think is what you are looking at, says F is 23 degrees.

See if that clears it up. If not, let me know!
Yay!!! THAT'S WHAT I DID!!!! I checked his paper & called him back to the table for corrections, when he checked his answer of 28 degrees and corrected it to 23 degrees, I glanced back to solution manual @ the Warm-up instead of the Lesson Practice!!! OOPS! I looked over & over @ that 16 trying to figure out if I could just be reading it wrong. Thanks - that is why though - I was looking at the wrong 'F'!! Thanks though for the corrections - I bookmarked those so I can be ready for them when I come across them. It is no fun wondering if I'm clueless or if the solution manual is wrong!! LOL
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Julie in MN
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Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Julie in MN » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:23 pm

asheslawson wrote:Please help - this does not seem clear to me - or my ds!

Saxon 87, textbook, less #78, MP#20, pg 531
Describe the rule of this function and find the missing numbers:
IN-----Function-----OUT
2------Function------9
3------Function-----14
4------Function-----__
5------Function-----24
__-----Function------4

And below is the answer given by the textbook - I do understand that it works - but it just seems to follow no consistent pattern at all - so I don't know if I ever would have found it. I had my son skip it so if I get a way to cue him to find the answer on his own, I will! This really baffles me - in my mind the next "in" number should have been "6" and the next out number should have been "30" if this were done correctly - but dropping it down to "1" for the "in" number all of a sudden to result in "4" for the "out" number makes no sense. HELP!

We originally thought it would be the result of the "function" number having increased by 4 each time (the first one would have been 1+3=4, then 2+3+4=9) 2+3+4=9, 3+7+4=11, 4+11+4=19, 5+15+4=24 - but then that in no way would have worked to result in a 4 for the final out number.

From the solutions manual:
Solution:
Multiply the "in" number by 5; then subtract 1 to find the "out number.
4 (5) - 1 = 19
4 + 1 = 5, 5 / 5 = 1

(I used a / for the division sign shown in the book.)
Okay, these math questions can be tricky on the keyboard, so I hope this makes sense.

I think the goal here is to find a "function" that works for all of the problems in the list. And when I read your email, my son was sitting next to me and he agreed. In other words, the "x5-1" part is the "function." My son said there are virtually limitless functions that could go in there, multiplying by a billion and so forth, but the simplest one is multiplying by 5 and then subtracting by 1.

What is *not* happening is any kind of pattern that moves sequentially down the rows of problems. My son said he likes patterns, they make things easy, but basically these are just various problems and the first four look like a sequence but the final problem shows it's not meant to be an orderly sequence of related problems, just problems with the same "function" in common. My son said he thinks it's pretty common to sort of "lead you along" until you get it, and then throw a problem in that's different and "see if you really get it."

The final problem is basically "what do I start with in order to make this true": __x5-1=4, and the answer is to start with "1." 1x5 =5, 5-1=4

I think the answer key was trying to show how to work out the problem "backwards," starting with the 4. Neither me nor my son would want to do it that way with such small numbers -- more work to figure out the new equation than to just plug-n-chug. However, I suppose knowing how to set it up "backwards" might help with later harder problems?

Does that help?
Julie
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Amy C.
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Amy C. » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:27 pm

My oldest ds who completed 87 last year looked at it. He says that he doesn't always go by the book when working out math problems. I hope that means he has learned to think outside the box & look at working math in more than one way! ;)

Anyway, he said that he would have looked at the pattern of the out numbers, such as 9+5=14+5=19+5=24. And so the out # 4 is smaller than the out # 9. He knows the in # for 9 is 2 so therefore the in # for 4 must be less than 2 which leads him to rationalize that the answer is 1. He follows that train of thought with the fact that he added 5 to each out # and each corresponding in # is in chronological order so the answer must be 1 because 9-4=5.
He used addition instead of multiplication to find the pattern.

In my looking at it, I see the pattern as the ("in" # x 5) -1= the "out" #. The last "in" # answer can't be 6 because the last "out" # is smaller than the first one (4<9). So you use the reverse of the function ("in" # x 5) -1 which is "out" # + 1= #/5="in" #. Thus, 4+1=5/5=1.

Does any of that help?

Amy C.

asheslawson
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by asheslawson » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:29 pm

Thank you - I think I am less confused! :~

Patterns definitely make things easier - this just seems so random - like there could be many things to try that would have worked, but the simplest is the answer provided in the solution manual....as Julie mentioned.

I guess I get frustrated because I think we are finally getting this - and then a problem like this comes along and I just can't seem to see the function without resorting to the answer guide - I'm going to try to sit down with him and see if he can figure it out on his own without showing him the answer - maybe a few hints but I am hoping he can do it where I was unable to!
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him" Colossians 2:6
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Julie in MN » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:08 pm

Don't worry too much. Functions are usually a pretty big topic in pre-calculus and beyond, so your son will revisit the concept.

I think the main goal is to see that there is some "function" in between the input and the output such that there is one and only one pairing - so if the "answer" or output was 4, then the only input possible is 1. What that function is doesn't seem to need to be anything particular, kind of like the bar diagrams in Singapore Math - we can each draw them differently, just so long as the given information/input will always correctly match the answer/output.

Julie
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Amy C.
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Amy C. » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:08 pm

I have to look at the answer key a good bit. Yay for answer keys!!! Especially when we have a hundred things we are trying to juggle when we are asked to help with a math problem. ;) :)
Actually, I don't know that I would have figured that one out without the answer key. I was able to see the reverse function when my ds was explaining how he saw it. My second ds will be on that unit in a couple of days. Thanks for posting this question! Now I have a preview of what's coming up and can be prepared, at least on that problem anyway! :)

Sometimes my oldest has to help my next ds with math. And sometimes we have to call on the dad to help. :)

We had one the other day none of us quite figured out, even with the answer key. There's not many we've encountered that way, but they do come up every now and then. And there are some days my brain is just not geared toward math, IYKWIM. :)

Amy C.

asheslawson
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by asheslawson » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:13 am

Thanks Julie & Amy! I still struggle with this - but I went back with a more open-minded approach after realizing that the goal of this is ONLY to find the function that is being done to EACH "in" number in order to obtain the "out" number. I was thinking that there should have been some type of relationship with the in & out number, and that was really not happening in this problem. So here is my very joyful update...

I went in this evening and asked him to look at it again - at first he became frustrated and said there was no possible answer that could be done to every number - then he said there were so many possibilities that it was impossible to solve it - after he ranted a few minutes, I encouraged him to try some numbers. He still wanted to do the same thing I did, provide a relationship between the numbers, he was stuck on the fact that each number increased by 4. I showed him that was true except for the last number - and he would still need to find a relationship by using one or more functions to solve. I told him there were only 4 to work with, add, subtract, multiply and/or divide; and that he should try to stick with simple lower numbers, instead of trying to get higher value numbers. That is all I gave him to go on and he said, "Fine, then just multiply by 5 and subtract 1, that would work." So I told him to show me - and he did. Done. Much quicker than I would have EVER come up with that!

After that we had the most wonderful joke when I told him he must have peeked at the answer book - we ended up teasing and laughing hysterically, since I knew he had not, but he couldn't say he hadn't without doubling up with laughter. We ended up playing the "who can keep a straight face" game and laughing so much that all the fun caused my daughter to run in to join in on the fun. It sure made for a great ending to an otherwise hectic homeschool day!
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him" Colossians 2:6
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Amy C.
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Amy C. » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:54 am

What a great ending to any day, but especially a frustrating math day! That ability to laugh and share a bonding moment and stay connected as a family is more important than any math problem! That's great! Thanks for sharing! We have a running joke around here of whether or not math is a 4 letter word. We read the title of a recent article that said "Math Is Not a Four Letter Word". My husband said, "I beg to differ." You know, because it is literally a four letter word - M A T H. My older boys think it really is a dreaded 4 letter word. :) ;) They have even asked could that be there 4 letter word when they felt they needed to use one since, you know, we don't curse around here.

We are kinda quirky around here, but keeping your sense of humor and laughing together is good medicine, especially to break the frustration that can exist at times, like during a math lesson! :)

Amy C.

Julie in MN
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Re: Saxon 87 Help - less#78, MP#20, pg 531

Unread post by Julie in MN » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:49 pm

I agree, what a fun post to read! Thanks for describing it in-the-moment, which is so much more descriptive than trying to remember it later :)

I've also enjoyed just having a 3-way conversation about helping a child tackle math problem - where else can we have a conversation like that!

Julie
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gratitude
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Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by gratitude » Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:31 pm

asheslawson wrote:HELP. I feel so clueless - we are on lesson 82 in Saxon 87 & he is taking Facts Practice Q.

I feel absolutely clueless - I thought I remembered there was ONE way to do something that would work even if the numbers were different in these methods when I was in school -- but for some reason I can't wrap my brain around this & it should be simple.

Here is the deal - we converted 12-1/2% to 0.125 and 1/8. The method we found showed to put 125 over 1000 to convert the decimal to fraction. This is because there are 3 places past the decimal. 125/1000 reduces to 1/8 - this works & seems clear. SO...I get to 83-1/3% and I can't make it work. WHY?

83-1/3% converted to a decimal as .83 with the repetend bar over the 3. So that would convert to 833/1000 or 83/100. No matter what - I can't seem to make this reduce to 5/6, which is what the solutions manual shows. (The solutions manual shows 83-1/3% = 0.83 (with bar over 3) = 5/6)

I get 833/1000 or 83/100 which does not reduce (83 is prime & 833 is divisible by 7 [119 times], but 1000 is not divisible by 7. HELP - I just want a formula that works & I'll stick with it - and I am sorry but I keep re-reading the lesson & even searching the internet for help and we are not getting it. I am not sure why. Sorry for seeming to have a poor attitude - I am getting frustrated - and I am wishing I knew why we feel so defeated when we work through these things. It's making me feel like trying Teaching Textbooks or just putting him in school, because I don't know what the answer is. I don't know how much further I can advance him when I feel so clueless myself.
Here it is; it did take some thought:

833/5 equals 166.6
1000/6 equals 166.67

So 833/1000 reduces to 5/6 (as you knew)

5/6 equals .833 with 3 repeating,

To figure it out I guess I would think that 4 goes into 800 evenly so it has to be a number a little bigger - thus try 5 into 833. Then when I found out it went in 166.6 I would try 166.7 multiplied by 6 and found it to be 1000. I would have tried 6 since 167 is not far below 200 that is 5 times into 1000.

I hope that helps, and isn't confusing everything. We aren't to Saxon 8/7 so I don't know how it teaches it, and they might think through it more easily than I do.

asheslawson
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Re: Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by asheslawson » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:21 pm

I really appreciate your help - at least I can see that I'm not crazy - close is really the answer - not exact. :~

I am still not totally happy with this - because that is close to 5/6 - but I'm just not a close kind-of girl! I really like things very exact, unless it said to estimate. I agree it's really close to 5/6, but I am going to have to go back & listen to several lessons now to see if I can find out if he said "just get close" in the DIVE lessons. I can't find it in the printed lessons I've reviewed. GRRR...this disrupts the one thing I do love about math - you can always figure out the answer and it's not subjective like writing or art might be. Haha! I guess there just have to be some frustrating things out there - and I'm getting REALLY nervous about Algebra I next year.

Maybe I just missed the lesson that said 'just get close' - both the boys are on different lessons in math and with my granddaughter & my 3rd grade dd, I haven't had time to listen to the lessons each day with them as I intended to do when I started. I've got a LOT of back-tracking to do because I can't stand being unable to explain this to him.
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Re: Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by KellyMS » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:59 pm

Okay, so my oldest is in kindergarten but I enjoy math and this caught my eye... I obviously haven't seen the lessons involved, so this may not be the right strategy, but here goes.

You've got the conversion to the decimal .83 with the 3 repeating. It's much easier to deal with the fraction conversion if you treat the places separately, so .8 is 8/10 and .03 with the 3 repeating is 1/30 (1/3 is .3 repeating, so multiply the denominator by 10 to adjust for the extra position in the decimal)

Then, convert the 8/10 to 24/30 to get the common denominator, add the 1/30 to get 25/30 and simplify to 5/6.

Does that make sense? I hope it helps!

Kelly
Hannah 5
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Julie in MN
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Re: Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by Julie in MN » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:24 am

(A friend with the book helped me, and the conversion of the fraction 5/6 was first memorized on Facts Practice Page L, worked on several times from Lesson 56 on, and so this lesson is just checking the memorization of that fact, rather than asking for the student to work it out.)

Originally I thought it was a poorly planned question. I imagined the textbook author (Mr. Saxon or one of the revisers since then) thought that 5/6 = 0.8333... and 125/1000 = 0.8333... but to me, it doesn't necessarily mean that 8.333 would lead to 5/6.

Then I thought of what Kelly said -- if your student has memorized the math fact 1/3 = 0.3333, then you could add 1/30 (0.03333) to the 8/10, so that would be 1/30 + 24/30 = 25/30 = 5/6

However, now I'm noticing it was a "math facts" question, so more of a memorizing the facts...

Basically, there are only so many fraction conversions that come out evenly. My son memorized those, like the 1/8 that you mentioned, and they come in handy a lot. He doesn't figure them out, he just knows them. The rest are "approximations" or "in betweens" -- like gratitude was mentioning. I guess the book wants the student to memorize some of those, too.

My son (12th grade) was just talking with my grandson (1st grade) about a math situation last night, and he told him it would be easier to use 1 & 4, because 5 & 10 in the situation my grandson wanted to make up was going to give him a long fraction... I thought about you guys's conversation :)

Julie
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TriciaMR
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Re: Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by TriciaMR » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:33 pm

You know, we just did the fractions/percents/decimals sheets as memory work. The first several I let my dd copy from the answer key. Then, over time, she would remember more and more. We never used that as "do the math to find it out" exercise - there is plenty of that in the textbook. It is really rote memory work.
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Re: Converting...decimals to percents, percents to fractions

Unread post by asheslawson » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:16 pm

Tricia & Julie - thanks - Yes - it was a Facts Practice (I hope I explained that). I may be overworking him on these - because he is working them out & not memorizing them - so I am struggling to find a "method" for him to work them out. When they are not evenly divisible - it's difficult to do sometimes. Especially with one like that one - where it is easy to convert 5/6 from a decimal to a percent, but not as easy to start with the percent and go to the fraction. These repeatedly show up in his mixed practice reviews as well (the little chart where he has to find the missing 2 from one given - such as they give percent & he needs to find the decimal & the fraction then they'll give him a fraction and he needs to find the decimal & percent). He is really struggling with these. I guess we'll take a break and work on memorizing them - because that is something he needs more drill on - memory work is not always easy for him. We usually have to break and work on that fairly intensely for a few days & then get back on track. Thanks though - I guess I just wish there was an easy "method" to find these when the memorized fact has vacated our brain!! I have always had a weakness for math - and it's not anything like my weakness for chocolate!! ;)
"So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him" Colossians 2:6
dd-28, ds-25, ds-24, ds-22, ds-14, dd-10, student 13, granddaughter 3
MFW K, 1st, ECC, CTG, RTR, EX1850, 1850-MOD
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TriciaMR
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:43 am

Saxon 8/7 Slope Activity Sheet L107

Unread post by TriciaMR » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:22 pm

Poohbee wrote:Please help. :-) In Lesson 107 of Saxon 8/7, there is an Activity Sheet 8: Slope. Where are the answers for this sheet? I can't find them in the solutions manual. I could probably figure them out, but with me being a bit rusty in my math skills, I just wanted to double-check an answer key. Can anyone help me out?
There are no answer keys for the activity sheets :( - I did them with my dd so I could know she was doing them right. Sorry.
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
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Poohbee
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:38 pm
Location: North Dakota

Re: Saxon 8/7 Slope Activity Sheet L107

Unread post by Poohbee » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:20 pm

Thanks, Trish, for your response. My husband is the "mathy" one in this couple, so I am having him do the sheet and then check my daughter's answers against his own. :-)
Jen
happily married to Vince (19 yrs)
blessed by MFW since 2006
have used every year K-1850MOD
2018-2019: Adventures with 9yo boy

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