Grammar - Placement for child who has already had lots?

Issues specific to teaching 6th to 8th graders, including the transition to Saxon math, Apologia science, Progeny Press guides, and grammar lessons
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TNLisa
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:05 am
Location: Maine

Grammar - Placement for child who has already had lots?

Unread post by TNLisa »

How much grammar is needed for son who has already had lots?

Okay ladies - help me out, please! This Fall will be our first year with MFW and we'll be doing ECC.

My upcoming 7th grade son has done GRAMMAR since 1st grade (Shurley Grammar for 1-4, then he came home for homeschool and he did Easy Grammar 4/5 for 5th grade, now he's doing Rod & Staff 6 this year).

He has a strong base in grammar - can you tell? geesh. Poor kid. I plan to do things much differently with my upcoming 3rd grade dd.

Anyway, here's my question -
Do I go ahead and do the Applications of Grammar as MFW recommends?
Do I stop grammar all together and focus on writing?

Here is our lineup so far:

Saxon 87
Henle Latin
Rosetta Stone Spanish
MFW-ECC with 2 PP or TLP lit guides (plus the extra biographies, country reports, etc.)
*Apologia General Science
*Critical Thinking through Chess
*Percussion

(*to be done at tutorial here in town)

Thanks so much,
Lisa
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Unread post by Julie in MN »

Lisa,
I would stop the grammar, and only bring it back if you see a specific need. Writing would be an excellent thing to focus on, and would be a good way to notice whether his grammar skills were being used.

When I brought my dd home to school in high school, she had already mastered grammar. Of course, she wanted to study grammar because she was good at it, but we quickly pronounced her graduated from grammar studies & focussed our attention on other areas needing attention more desperately.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
TNLisa
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:05 am
Location: Maine

Unread post by TNLisa »

Thanks Julie - I was hoping for the confirmation.

Would you suggest Writing Strands for my 7th grader? We have not used any type of "writing program" --- he's done written assignments through his study of history and literature, and the ones interspersed through Rod & Staff.

Any suggestions?
MJ in IL
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:23 pm

Unread post by MJ in IL »

Lisa-

I agree with Julie. I have a dd13 who does well in grammar and spelling and we have had years in which we focus on science and math in place of these. I haven't used PP, but I know there is grammar in TLP guides.

As far as writing, I have not done much with WS for dd. She does takes an IEW class at our co-op in the fall and I use those ideas for her notebooking and other LA papers.

I don't have much experience with other writing programs. We have done more of WS with ds10--it is a better fit for him.
Molly
dd14 enjoying AHL; ds12 & ds10 in RtR & dd5 working through K!
have done K (2X), 1 (2X), ECC, CtG, & 1850MT
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Unread post by Julie in MN »

Lisa,
I agree with Molly that some kids seem to do better with Writing Strands than others.

I also agree with you that writing "real stuff" is probably the best way to learn.

However, I like that Writing Strands has specific lessons that I might have missed had I not used it. Things like noticing what tense the author uses, or whether a story is written in first person or third person. And then of course trying to change those things on your own -- harder than it looks, sometimes.

Most other writing programs I pick up seem to open to the page that says, "Write 500 words on ..." I feel Writing Strands only has specific assignments that are very clear and concise. Well, sometimes I feel I could have written the instructions a tad better than the author, but I think I feel that way most of the time (except with Marie Hazell LOL!).

I sometimes think WS works for me because I'm teaching it to my youngest, with whom I am fairly relaxed, rather than to my oldest, with whom I was fairly uptight :o)

HTH, Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
TNLisa
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:05 am
Location: Maine

Unread post by TNLisa »

I just looked at the PP, TLP, and LL sites.

I'm going to let my son pick his 2 books for the units since we'll be doing a lot of other readings geared toward missionaries. So that rules LL out.

I'm torn between PP and TLP --- for those of you who have used both, how do they compare? I couldn't see samples of TLP - but their descriptions seem very similar.
Lucy
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:37 am

Unread post by Lucy »

Lisa,

The PP guides focus more on just the literature and does not add in grammar study or spelling(TLP). It does have some vocab. and intro. literary terms. It also does have some writing assignments that correlate with the book study but it is not writing instruction.

Maybe someone else will add more.

One thing though is you do not have to use everything in TLP if they have a book that you want to use. Just mark out the pages you do not want to use.

Lucy
wife to Lee and mom to Twila 18 (girl) and Noel 16(boy). Happy MFW user since 2002.
TNLisa
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:05 am
Location: Maine

Unread post by TNLisa »

I think I may have him pick a book from each one. :)

Thanks Lucy!
ark2003
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 10:31 am

grammar question

Unread post by ark2003 »

hi...i've looked in the archives and haven't found exactly what i'm looking for...and i want to spend less time looking in the archives!!! so, i thought i'd go ahead and ask:

we'll be using MFW for the first time soon. my 7th grade 13 y/o dd will be using ECC. she is just about to finish up a beka's God's gift of language B which is (i think) a comprehensive study on grammar. it's meant for 5th graders, but seems appropriate for any intro to grammar. here's a synopsis of the contents:
part 1:
verbs
nouns
sentences and sentence parts
pronouns
modifiers
using modifiers well
prepositions, conjunctions, interjections
punctuation
quotations and capitals
part 2:
the writing process: book reports, letters, paragraphs, outlines
using the encyclopedia to write reports
the library research report
part 3:
the best words (ie synonyms, antonyms, etc)
dictionary and thesaurus
complements
final review

there's lots of diagramming practice in this book.

my dd did fairly well with this book. a lot of the things she had difficulty with were things that were actually difficult for me too..and i consider myself to be relatively "good at grammar". and, i enjoy diagramming sentences.

she also does copywork, dictation and science notebooking.

she is a very "reluctant writer" and does not enjoy it. she also doesn't enjoy reading and has some difficulty with comprension. math is her forte.

so, do i skip A. of G. (yes, i think) but add the guides from PP and add WS? She's an excellent speller and enjoys it so much that she asked me today to buy her the next volume of Spelling Workout to complete. I'd stopped it b/c she's so good at it and doesn't need the practice. i'll go ahead and buy it for her though and make it optional. it'll be a good confidence booster, i think. as for WS, should i really start her in level 3? we tried WS a few years ago and stopped it b/c it just didn't seem to be going anywhere. perhaps we didn't stick with it long enough.

thanks so much for taking the time to read this. i appreciate your advice!!

blessings,
amanda
Amanda,
Wife to a good looking genius
Mom to five sweet girls 3/97, 4/04, 4/04, 9/08, 9/11
And one tough baby boy 7/13
Have done MFW K, 1st, ADV, ECC, CTG, AHL, WHL
Homeschooling since 2006
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

grammar question

Unread post by Julie in MN »

ark2003 wrote:we'll be using MFW for the first time soon. my 7th grade 13 y/o dd will be using ECC. she is just about to finish up a beka's God's gift of language B which is (i think) a comprehensive study on grammar. it's meant for 5th graders, but seems appropriate for any intro to grammar. here's a synopsis of the contents:
part 1:
verbs
nouns
sentences and sentence parts
pronouns
modifiers
using modifiers well
prepositions, conjunctions, interjections
punctuation
quotations and capitals
part 2:
the writing process: book reports, letters, paragraphs, outlines
using the encyclopedia to write reports
the library research report
part 3:
the best words (ie synonyms, antonyms, etc)
dictionary and thesaurus
complements
final review

there's lots of diagramming practice in this book. my dd did fairly well with this book. a lot of the things she had difficulty with were things that were actually difficult for me too..and i consider myself to be relatively "good at grammar". she also does copywork, dictation and science notebooking.

she is a very "reluctant writer" and does not enjoy it. she also doesn't enjoy reading and has some difficulty with comprehension.

so, do i skip A. of G. (yes, i think) but add the guides from PP and add WS? as for WS, should i really start her in level 3? \
thanks so much for taking the time to read this. i appreciate your advice!! blessings,
amanda
Hi Amanda,
It sounds like she can easily skip All-In-One Grammar, which is recommended for 7th grade. That covers the basic parts of speech, and those are already on your list.

If you find the time, she may want to gradually start the 8th grade book, Applications of Grammar. This book covers more than parts of speech. It covers things like compound sentences and those pesky verbal phrases. I'm going to try to attach the table of contents, so you can see. (We'll see how I do! :~ ) But I think it would be a bonus to have two years to cover that book.

And yes, PP for literature and WS for writing. Level 3 should be fine, but if you feel she's advanced then level 4 would work too, IMO. Those two levels are pretty similar, I think.

As for the reading, I use some audiobooks with my reluctant reader. They can help with comprehension because the vocabulary is heard properly and not skipped over, as when my son is reading to himself.

Julie
Attachments
AOG table of contents, page 1
AOG table of contents, page 1
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Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
cbollin

Re: grammar question

Unread post by cbollin »

I would probably lean toward this thought for starting the year: 1st semester, plan to have some time off of a grammar workbook. 2nd semester, begin Applications of Grammar and finish in 8th grader. The review will be good for keeping skills sharp.

Writing Strands, start level 3, and feel encouraged to work faster than one book next year if she is ready for more. Normally, I wouldn't worry about doing more than one book in a year, but since I'm leaning toward not doing a formal grammar for at least a semester, then it makes sense. call out for some ideas. Between Julie and Crystal, you'll get a range of possibilities to use WS. (we will we will rock you! uh....) Some lessons will be quick with a 7th grader who already knows sentence and paragraph structure. Some lessons might not seem to make sense unless you read the objectives/goals and say "ah ha! that's what I'm going to teach with this".

Do Progeny Press guides.
grab audio books if needed and read along.

other language arts skills will be covered in ECC unit study with country summary sheets, report writing, vocab in geography and character vocab.

blessings,
-crystal
gentlestrengths
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:50 pm

7th grader question

Unread post by gentlestrengths »

gentlestrengths wrote: Applications of Grammar Book 1 is too easy for my daughter. She is 12, 7th grade, and this is our first year using MFW - and she has had extensive grammar already. I thought that the 7th grade looked like it was too simple for her, so bought the 8th grade suggestion - still, it's a no-go.... I'm not going to make her repeat all of that this year.

What would you suggest? Would Book 2 be appropriate? I know there is an entire set of those - but I don't know much else about them, and I've already opened Application of Grammar and probably will not be using it for a year or two with my next child....I don't want another set sitting on a shelf. Any suggestions? She will do writing strands, and the country reports etc..... but I'd like her to continue on some level of instruction for grammar.
Your dd has apparently accomplished all of the grammar recommended by MFW before high school. If you want her to do more than that, then I wonder if you can continue with what you were doing before? Or of course there are many other things out there. I used some of Michael Clay Thompson's grammar one year - although it was very parent-intensive at my house. I also had my son just create a grammar notebook of various rules that came up in his writing, with examples, as another option. MFW uses one of the Easy Grammar Ultimate series in 11th grade, and maybe that would be an option. Those start at an 8th grade level, but your dd might easily do that level or beyond.

I can't find any previous posts about folks using Applications #2. Hopefully someone else who's more of a grammar studier will chime in. I'm more of a writing person, with grammar as issues come up. But I know there are some families who have done the kind of grammar study all along that you describe.
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: 7th grader question and ECC book basket q

Unread post by gratitude »

We Love Rod and Staff grammar; OK I love it and my kids tolerate it. ;) What were you using before? Could you continue with it? It sounds like whatever you were using has given her good grammar preparation.
gentlestrengths
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:50 pm

Re: 7th grader question and ECC book basket q

Unread post by gentlestrengths »

I am going to look at CL and R&S for my daughter. I don't really want her 7th and 8th grade years to go without some sort of grammar. If all else fails, I don't think the Applications of Grammar would be very hard and it would be review to keep it fresh.

Thanks again!
momtogc wrote:I'm sorry I don't really have grammar advice. We are just starting with All In One English this year (7th grade). I think someone mentioned Rod and Staff. I've heard their grammar is intensive...perhaps bump her up to a higher level?
Postby gentlestrengths » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:38 pm
As far as the LA for my oldest daughter - I ended up looking at Rod & Staff, and Christian Light - ended up purchasing the Christian Light 9th grade curriculum. I can't even believe how advanced she is. But she has been working on it, and it is all review so far (it won't always be...which is why I purchased 9th grade). Thanks again for everyone's help!
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