Science - Apologia General specific lessons, labs, supplies

Issues specific to teaching 6th to 8th graders, including the transition to Saxon math, Apologia science, Progeny Press guides, and grammar lessons
cbollin

Science - Apologia General specific lessons, labs, supplies

Unread post by cbollin » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:17 pm

Module 6

For those who might be wondering about the limestone rock small enough to fit in glass..... (supply for this module)

try pea gravel. It seemed to have worked. The textbook mentioned about most gravel being limestone, but if you hadn't read that part yet and just had your supply list with you, you might want to make a note of it on the list.

If you don't have any and don't want to buy a bag of it -- ask at the home improvement store if you can just have two handfuls of gravel from the floor that had spilled from the bags. They were happy to let us sweep it up and take home a handful for science class. You don't need too much for this module to do both Experiment 6.2 6.3

Thought that might help a bit for planning ahead.

-crystal

kellybell
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Unread post by kellybell » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:02 pm

We just grabbed some gravel that we had outside. I figured that we've got enough gravel out there to do the experiment another 2 million times. Only got two more kids that need to do this in future years.
Kelly, wife to Jim since 1988, mom to Jamie (a girl, 1994), Mary (1996), Brian (1998) and Stephanie (2001).

Tracey in ME
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Unread post by Tracey in ME » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:51 pm

Well, I made things even easier on myself and bought the Apologia General Science supply kit that Sonlight sells--doh! I paid $15. It is normally $15 + $12 shipping. That was the cheapest kit I could find. I was tired of trying to find everything. More careful planning might have saved me...but not much, I don't think. Anyway, thanks Crystal!

OT (kinda) - how did you daughter do on the first Module Test? My 12yo is about to take her first test tomorrow. Yikes!
- Tracey
Mother of six (16, 13, 9, 7, 4, and 15 months)
2006 - Present - My Father's World
2001-2005 Sonlight

Our blog: http://traceys-journal.blogspot.com/

cbollin

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:08 pm

Winni wrote:OT (kinda) - how did you daughter do on the first Module Test? My 12yo is about to take her first test tomorrow. Yikes!
glad you found a way to get the lab supplies. Lots of sources out there to get supplies. :)

Well, my kiddo wasn't ready for that test and didn't do well at all the first time on it. She didn't really study much and it showed. Also, she hadn't done much with the scientist and who did what.

Then, she went back with those Donna Young notebooking sheets and filled in stuff. When it came time for the 1st Quarterly Test, she did awesome even with the scientists names.

So, I think even though she didn't get a great score on that Module 1 test she learned a lot about how to study and prepare.

-crystal

cbollin

On Your Own & Lab answers

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:34 am

LSH in MS wrote:My 7th grader will begin General Science this year. I have a question about the "On your own" sections. Are these supposed to be answered orally or written? Also, how detailed does the lab report need to be? Are these recorded in a spiral notebook or something else?
My daughter answered them orally and looked up the answers on her own. I didn't require her to write them. Sometimes I would call out the question, but as I saw she knew the stuff, that became less of an issue. I thought of them as classroom check point discussion time and treated accordingly. Usually they are the last part of the lesson.

lab reports:
I would love to know what others did. last year when I had that question, MFW didn't have any answers to help me. So, I had to figure it out on my own. I mean the apologia book itself says I'm supposed to count lab reports as part of the grade. I wanted integrity in doing that. But you never know, maybe the great mfw office people have an answer this year to help others?

I had to check out Donna Young's website for real help on lab reports with Apologia General. She has an entire section on Apologia General Science.There's even a rubric for grading/evaluating. Also, there is a link in the Apologia General book to take you to a sample lab report for Experiment 1.1

They don't have to be super detailed. My daughter typed her reports in Word. She'd email them to me. I'd print it and check to see that it made sense. filed it in a file folder. She used a spiral notebook for any lab drawings.

I ended up not requiring a lab report for all of the experiments. Some were just observing things to have a demo of the lesson. And there were some experiments that we skipped.

I ended up deciding that a lab report was 20 points. and if I find how I broke down those points, I'll let you know. Most of it was making sure it was done on time, emailed on time to me, filled in with correct info and made sense. She easily ended up with 19 and 20's on the reports and was doing the work. and then I had a lady at church who is a chemistry teacher at local high school look at the reports and she said "wow. I wish my honors kids could do that! wow". Eventually by the end of the year, I began to see lab reports as a way of writing.

-crystal
Last edited by cbollin on Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

mom2boys
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Re: On Your Own & Lab answers

Unread post by mom2boys » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:53 am

My son did the On Your Own questions with me orally; by the end of the year he just did it on his own and looked up the answers on his own.

We also did the review questions at the end of each chapter orally except for the definitions which he wrote out - we did this the entire year. He scored well on the tests even without having written all those out. I do plan to move toward having him do this more independently and writing some of it out this year in Physical Science.

He did the labs through co-op and that teacher graded all his lab reports. He did very well with these. She taught them to do a pretty detailed report but I would have gone the same route as Crystal if I had to do it myself.
Last edited by mom2boys on Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~Charlotte
loving my Hubby and 3 sons 16, 13, 7
Used MFW since 2004

cbollin

finding cork - Experiment 1.1 in Gen. Science

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:08 am

tiffany wrote:Anyone have an easy suggestion for locating some cork for a science experiment? Just need a small piece.

It is Experiment 1.1 in Gen. Science, the one with the grape. I remember it being a cool experiment from when Sophie did it, so I was not wanting to skip this one.
Ideas:
* do you or any of your neighbors/friends drink wine? Maybe they have a cork sitting around. you never know. I remember needing a glass bottle one time and my neighbors were finishing a beer and let me have the bottle as long as I promised to recycle it.
* did you check a place like a hobby store?
* do you have a church preschool nearby that might have one you could borrow --- I did that. I called a preschool and said exactly why I needed one and they said they keep those around for making dangling things on hats.
* know back in my old town, the recycling center had a reuse side of the building for teachers to get craft materials.

My daughter tells me she used a piece of styrofoam instead of cork. Then she told me how we couldn't find the cork from when we asked "joan" at the preschool and that when we looked in the junk drawer there was a styrofoam ball from some craft and we tried that.

She says this is a really fun experiment and hopes you find something like that to use quickly that will float on top of the oil.


now she came back over here and says --- you'll need cork again in Physical for a cool experiment that you really pop it off.
But you aren't using cork to float. you need it as a stopper on the experiment she's talking about in Physical.
but ... we ended up not getting cork. instead we took the base of one of those little plastic egg timers (the 3 minute things with sand it in) and put a little bit of modeling clay in the hole of the base.
then we use that for a stopper. stand clear!
yes Oldest.. you were right.... it was that experiment! very good.

tiffany
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Re: finding cork

Unread post by tiffany » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:35 pm

I planned to use styrofoam, which I thought I had recently thrown out. But, guess what? It was missing. :~

So we used a broken Nerf gun bullet. So proud of myself for thinking of that. I think that is proof positive that I am officially the mother of 5 boys.
Tiffany
Wife to Tim ('88)
Mother to Sophie 16, Jonathan 14, Joey 12, Noah 10, Matthew 8, Eli 4
Have completed MFWK, MFW 1st grade, ECC, CTG, RTR, Exp.-1850,1850-Mod., HS Ancients, HS World
Fall of '11 ECC,HS Ancients, HS U.S. History to 1877

cbollin

general science test #1

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:31 pm

faithmom wrote:Well, my son did well going through Module 1 in General Science (pretty much on his own), but the test wasn't very pretty. I know this is a tough one, so what is acceptable? Any suggestions?
Several ideas:

you can email apologia for an alternate test for that module.
You can choose as the teacher to not count it toward final grade.
you can have a do over and just have the student write notebooking pages from that module on some of the other scientists and/or make it open book style for doing something like the module 1 donna young worksheets
http://donnayoung.org/apologia/general-worksheets.htm

My daughter had a rough time on that module 1 test too. It was the first test in the year and I hadn't looked ahead to help with knowing how the test was set up with matching like that on the scientists. She hasn't had any problems since then. She's done all of general, physical and is in module 4 of biology this week.

-crystal

Teresa in TX
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Re: general science test

Unread post by Teresa in TX » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:20 pm

We haven't taken the test yet, but I specifically remembered the Module 1 test with dd. My oldest is now in 10th grade, doing Chemistry, and she remembers taking that test in 7th. 8[]

We're going to do it open-book and then move on with our lives. :-) Ds is so very much enjoying Apologia. I don't want that first, ridiculous test to mess it up for him. As I remember, the rest were much more doable.
Teresa, Mom of 5: 15yo dd, 12yo ds, 7yo ds, 5yo ds, and 1yo ds

4th year with MFW
Using:
MFW 1st w/ 7yo ds
MFW RtR w/ 7th grade ds
MFW World History with 10th grade dd
So far we have used: ECC, 1850-Present, CTG, RtR, High School Ancients and MFW K

faithmom
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Re: general science test

Unread post by faithmom » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:21 pm

Thanks for the ideas. Memorization is a HUGE difficulty for this guy. I was thinking of maybe rewriting the test as a true/false - or maybe it should be open book. Aaaaaaaaargh! I wish I were more creative. Sometimes it is hard to stay ahead of the learning difficulties he has.

I did email Apologia. I got a new test from Apologia and this time he did really well. I wish I had thought of some other options before we did it so my son didn't end up so stressed.

So the other modules are a lot better? I hope so. He has been enjoying the course otherwise.
Irene
Married 20 years
ds-13, dd-11, dd-9, ds-7, dd-3, ds-1
Used ECC, CTG, K, 1st
2010-11 Using RTR and 1st

danabogan
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Re: general science test

Unread post by danabogan » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:54 pm

I think that test is one that my boys will always remember. All I can say is that I wouldn't have done that well on it either. It has been the only test they have bombed, and they are in Week 2 of Biology. When they were in general science I didn't really keep grades so we just moved on. Don't worry I haven't seen another test like that one thus far.

cbollin

General Science, study help idea

Unread post by cbollin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:08 am

For those 7th (and some 8th graders) using Apologia General Science this fall, I wanted to share an under construction website that I learned about on another forum

http://wikis.engrade.com/nctgs/nctgs1

It is apparently the website for a co-op class or something? I have not watched the videos on there. The reason I'm sharing the link is for the Module 1 History of Science. In that section of the website, there are some awesome on screen flash cards and multiple choice and matching to help a student study for the test and learn those names.

Anyone who has done module 1 knows it has a LOT of history and a lot of names of scientists. Gets confusing with the information. Longer module. some people take 3 weeks instead of 2. Part of the independent learning in General is to learn study skills. Well, it couldn't hurt a newly 7th grader to see study flashcards and practice online. Then, as they go along in the year, they'll be ready to do more on their own in that area.

that's a little gem for that module 1. Even though my middle gal is in module 3 (we started early), I think she'll benefit from it for the quarterly test.

-crystal

cbollin

Test question for Apologia General - Module 11

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:11 pm

Amy C. wrote:My son took Module 11 test today. The question was this: A person's sweat glands are malfunctioning so that the person never sweats. Why is this person more likely to get sick than a person whose sweat glands are working? His answer: The person cannot cool off. He or she could easily get heat stroke and dehydrated.

Looking back at the OYO questions/answers, these are the functions of the skin and how their malfunctions can affect the person: The skin provides waterproofing so the person might have a problem with water loss, which can cause dehydration. The skin provides sensation so the person might have trouble with sensations, like touch, temperature awareness, etc. The skin provides protection from pathogenic microorganisms so the person might have trouble with infections. The sweat glands in the skin help control body temp so the person might have trouble controlling her own body temp.

The correct answer to the test question: sweat helps to feed bacteria and fungi that fight off pathogenic organisms. So without sweat these beneficial organisms would die and the person would be more likely to be infected and get sick.

So I guess technically I should count his answer wrong. However, a person is sick when they have a heat stroke and are dehydrated. What would you do?
Amy C.
"No sweat" on this one.. you could at least give 1/2 point instead of full point.
and "chill out" .... LOL. I just couldn't resist the puns there.

seriously though.. you could give 1/2 point for understanding the heat and cool down. I'm not sure the dehydrated has much to do with it though. in fact, I don't think it does relate to hydration. I feel more dehydrated after my sweat fest after aerobic section...

I'd go back and have your student re-read p. 285 of the text. first paragraph lists 2 purposes of sweat and then the next two paragraphs talk about the bacteria/fungi feeding effect.

so... I'd lean in favor of at least a 1/2 point right because your son understands the cool down purpose and thought of one way that could make a person sick. On the other hand, I might count it as a full point if the question was "one reason".

clarifying..... in 7th grade, I guess I'm not super rigid on "this test answer was wrong!" I'd lean in the 1/2 point, and then, have a time to go over the information for why the book thought that the other purpose of sweat was more of the answer they were wanting to hear. and see how well that information on p. 285 was understood. It could have been the student didn't understand, or just forgot that part. I'd lean in favor of going over answers and discuss it. In other words, the key part in the question is that what would be a longer term reason for sickness versus a temp situation of over heat (which could be solved with a fan, a/c, or wet cloth)... does that explain that part? it's a longer term illness, vs. shorter term... although the short term heat stroke, overheat, would be a half point in my teacher opinion.

If the one point overall or half point is going to make or break a grade for the whole year.... just remember in jr. high, teachers can find that extra credit for an extra assignment or something. Even when I was college, I appealed to a professor to change a final grade in my Human Resources class. I was sure I had a better understanding than a C. I did. He quizzed me out loud for 5 minutes on theories of organizational behavior analysis, and then 15 minutes on labor relations and negotiations. Decided if I knew that off the top of my head, I could have the B. I guess I negotiated for it. LOL LOL
RIP, Dr. Ray Hilgert.

-crystal

Amy C.
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by Amy C. » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:02 pm

Thanks, Crystal. I know I shouldn't "sweat" it, and normally it wouldn't have been that big of a deal, but he had already missed two (got ligament and tendon mixed up), and here lately he has been feeling "stupid". Because he has been "behind" in math according to MFW's recs and will not finish Saxon 87 this year, he feels perpetually behind even though I have tried to help him see that he is really an advanced 7th grader. I tried to explain to him that most students do not do Alg 1 until 9th grade instead of 8th and that he is doing just fine. He also did his General vocab words on his test verbally to me. When he could not remember the last word (beneficial) on the last definition of the last vocab word, he said, "I just feel so stupid." I assured him he was NOT stupid and that I do that all the time - forget words that I want to use in conversation. He is my first-born (13 year old) perfectionist (too much like his mother). I have had to learn to chill out over the years - after 17 years of marriage and 4 children, I've been forced to give it up, kwim. ;) I still can lean in that direction, though. Thus the question of whether or not to count off on this question.

I let him fix a couple of math problems on a test the other day. He forgot to simplify a fraction to its lowest factor and forgot the square root sign on one answer. If not for those 2 mistakes he would have made a 100. He has not been making that great a grades on math (not failing but not A's and B's by any means), but mostly because of careless mistakes. He has been working extremely hard on math. I just felt like he needed the boost in confidence. When talking to my dh about it, he said, "Well, that is the benefit to hs'ing." While I know his college professors will not take pity on him like his mother, I am dealing with not only his academics but his emotional well-being as well. I want to be rigorous enough but fair and kind and merciful when needed. I want understanding above grades. And, of course, remember the most important thing, to lead him to Christ and a vibrant, growing relationship with Him. Man, this hs'ing can be tough, being both teacher and mother.

Yes, I need to "chill out" a little. He is only in 7th grade. I know it is not the end of the world, but it can be hard knowing and keeping the balance.

I do like your idea of giving 1/2 point credit and going back and making sure he understands the difference. That is what I plan to do.

Thanks!
Amy C.

ilovemy4kids
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by ilovemy4kids » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:26 pm

I'd give the 1/2 point like Crystal said.

Oh, for what it's worth, My dd 14, did 8/7 last year with general science for 7th grade, and physical this year with Alg 1/2 for 8th grade (she will finish 1/2 at the end of AUGUST - we are behind). Tell your son, he's not alone and in the big picture it won't really matter if he had Alg 1 in 8th or 9th....it all evens out in college!

Blessings
Sandra

cbollin

Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:29 pm

I get ligaments and tendons mixed up all the time. People ask me which one is hurt on my "instructor left" (my real right) foot and I never remember.... I just know I don't do the hopping lunge in single single double for more than 4 reps before going to low impact marches instead. I know the doctor said it was tendon,, but maybe he said ligament... whichever one it is... I have to ice up and wear my walking boot when not driving or dancing on stage (i.e. jazzercise) good thing on that? (other than I'm not a doctor) is that when I took my physiology test for certification, it was open book test.

keep encouraging him that not remembering everything just means some facts are things you will look up more often.

in terms of homeschool mom "pity" vs "eek! the machine will take no pity"... that's something to work on gradually over the next 4 years. I can remember my oldest being uptight in 7th grade about this stuff. and now, as she grades her math homework, and asks me to grade math and her dad to grade chemistry... she's really more able to relax now on "doh! that was a brain slip moment" yeah... take the full point off, I missed that one...
she's still competitive and all of that... and still gets hormonal and mad at herself.... eh. hang in there..... they change so much in these years... (oh dear.. the teen just made noises of frustration.. she got a boo hoo on her toe... I shoudl go give her a hug.. LOL )

oh .. here's something that has helped my middle daughter a LOT this year in apologia general... debbi. some lady out there named debbi who runs an apologia co-op of all things... has some flashcards, and multiple choice and matching on all of those things to learn in apologia modules..
http://wikis.engrade.com/nctgs/nctgs11

remember too.... with the apologia tests -- most of those are not multiple choice format, or matching. I can remember in jr. high and high school having matching and multiple choice. my teachers never wanted to read that much of my writing. you're good!

-crystal

Amy C.
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by Amy C. » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Thanks, Sandra and Crystal, for the encouragement! Raising a perfectionist to not be so perfectionistic can be tough!

Okay, question on how to calculate test scores. Maybe should have asked this before, but just starting to doubt myself. If there are 20 questions, one point apiece, do you take number they got right divided by possible number to get right times 100. In this case, he got 17.5 out of a possible 20 correct. Do I divide 17.5 by 20 and then multiply that times 100 to get grade (87.5) OR do you just count 1 point off and deduct what they got wrong from 100. In this case, it would give him a 97.5.

Each question counted 1 point. There was a total of 20 questions. He missed 2.5. How would you calculate?

Amy C.

cbollin

Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:59 pm

for each test, I just say 17.5/20 (as in 87.5 equivalent if they like to see a B + on a test)

for final....
I count up the total right over the whole book
then divide by total possible over whole book.
and then the quarterly tests get counted double if they really well on those, or single if not.
(so if a quarterly test had 35 questions and we did well on it, say like 33.. then for those totals I'd have it be 66 out of 70)

I'm guessing others do it differently?

shudder, I just had a flashback in my brain to the worst college professor I had in the business school. The dude was having a bad semester. His wife left him, and then a family member was ill, he hated teaching "sophomore" undergrads..... so he did this killer final exam and it was -- get this.... 1 million points. I kid you not... we all griped to the Dean of Academics on that guy... I was working in the registrars office that year... I know the ending of the story was a lot of grades were just converted... LOL LOL. eh? who needed quantitative business analysis 230 anyway? oh yeah.. everyone.. it was a core requirement..

is my college anxiety starting to show? I mean.. my oldest is finishing 10th grade and well.. and .. and well... and

by the way.. she ended up laughing about her toe and posting in on FB (my bed attacked me!) they do grow up and begin to handle stress in new ways.... giggle giggle giggle.....
-crystal

Amy C.
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by Amy C. » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:01 pm

cbollin wrote: so he did this killer final exam and it was -- get this.... 1 million points
8O %| 8[]

I bet you are glad that is behind you!!!
cbollin wrote:is my college anxiety starting to show? I mean.. my oldest is finishing 10th grade and well.. and .. and well... and
Anxiety? Yes, if I am this uptight now, I can't imagine how it will be when we hit the high school years. I am already having a little bit of a %| and 8O and :( moment that high school is around the corner for us. Next year 8th....and then 9th!!! Wow! Where has the time gone?

Thanks for the tutorial on test score calculation. That is the way I was calculating, but like I said, I was starting to doubt myself. My dh came home early a little while ago. I asked him, and he grinned at me the whole time he was explaining it. I think he was thinking that I need a break, and he is right!

Glad the weekend is here!

Amy C.

Julie in MN
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by Julie in MN » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:46 pm

Amy C. wrote:Okay, question on how to calculate test scores. Maybe should have asked this before, but just starting to doubt myself. If there are 20 questions, one point apiece, do you take number they got right divided by possible number to get right times 100. In this case, he got 17.5 out of a possible 20 correct. Do I divide 17.5 by 20 and then multiply that times 100 to get grade (87.5) OR do you just count 1 point off and deduct what they got wrong from 100. In this case, it would give him a 97.5.

Each question counted 1 point. There was a total of 20 questions. He missed 2.5. How would you calculate?
I agree on the B+.

And if you feel his skills grow over the year, another option is to just count the big tests as a measure of their cumulative knowledge and not add in the individual chapter tests.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

TriciaMR
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Re: Test question for Apologia General

Unread post by TriciaMR » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:38 pm

I just want to thank you guys for these threads. Next year my oldest will be in 7th, and boy am I nervous (dyslexia, math not her fave, and science?!?! EeK!).

I was gonna say, in college I had a math class where I had a D- at mid-semester, but got a B by the end of the semester. My grade should have been a C+, maybe, but the professor said, "You have improved so much and worked so hard, that I'm giving you a B."

So, didn't matter what my points added up to, he made it a B. (But, I also had bad professors who were never in their offices at office hours, and graded arbitrarily on things... Both ends of the spectrum are out there.)

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog

TriciaMR
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General Science supplies

Unread post by TriciaMR » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:35 pm

Winkie wrote:Where have you found iodine and alum? I was looking in the first aid section of KMart today but couldn't find any iodine. And I don't even know what section of the store to look for alum in :~
Alum is in the Spices/Baking goods section of the grocery store. Iodine I have picked up at Walgreens in the past. I would guess Rite-Aid or Eckerds or some other chain pharmacy.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog

Amy C.
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:12 am

Re: General Science supplies

Unread post by Amy C. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:56 pm

Winkie wrote:Oh, that helps!

I was just checking the supply list again -- what about plaster of Paris and a limestone rock ??
Iodine - Wal Mart
Alum - spice section at Kroger
Plaster of Paris - Hobby Lobby
Limestone - rocks from our driveway :-)

Amy C.

cbollin

Re: General Science supplies

Unread post by cbollin » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:42 pm

you can ask at the pharmacy counter for iodine. sometimes... they hide stuff like that.

if you don't have any gravel in your roads or driveways, or gutters.... you could appeal to someone at Lowes/Home Depot and ask if you could pick up loose gravel from their bags of rocks that are for decorating and such. (you know.... the same area as the mulch and all of that stuff). I took my science book in and said, I just need a handful to put in a glass with vinegar. The dept. manager looked at me and said... bend down and pick up the loose stuff that I'm getting ready to sweep... and walk away.. LOL

-crystal

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