Copywork - Trouble with copying Proverbs etc

Learning God's Story
cbollin

Copywork - Trouble with copying Proverbs etc

Unread post by cbollin » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:07 pm

caod wrote:My just turned six year old will be doing the first grade curriculum this year. As I look at it I realize that she will be expected to write out the Bible verse very early on. Writing is certainly not her strength. I don't think she is "delayed" but she doesn't enjoy a lot of handwriting and is not exceptionally good at it yet. Are there some of you that have made accommodations for your first grader in this regard and if so what were those accommodations? What should really be expected of a first grader in terms of writing. She is a very young first grader.

Thanks
Connie
Early on in the year, I let my young 1st grade write the verse out over several days or in several sittings throughout the day. I kept the teacher's manual version of the verse (from the appendix) in view on the table.

As the year went on, she was able to do more and easily finished the verse in one setting.

--crystal

Lucy
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:37 am

Unread post by Lucy » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:58 pm

I agree with Crystal on letting her do it over several days or in several sittings. This is such an important part of the first grade lang. arts that I would still work in little bits to have her do it. It is teaching so much more than handwriting for this the time to focus on puctuation, capitals and other mechanics of writing. When she begins the bible notebook you will see that it begins with only one line. This is to not overwhelm children when it is time for them to compose. The bible notebook is NOT the time that you want to be teaching these mechanics of writng as they are composing and that is much harder than copying.

I know this was a little extra info. but I wanted to give you a feel for the over-all reasoning for having the copy work to begin with.

My daughter was never very fond of it but I could really see the results in her composition work.

Lucy
wife to Lee and mom to Twila 18 (girl) and Noel 16(boy). Happy MFW user since 2002.

kellybell
Posts: 475
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:40 pm

Unread post by kellybell » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:11 am

My ds was overwhelmed too but we got through it. First, we read and discussed the verse so it wasn't just "copy a bunch of letters" to him.

Before he could work up to copying an entire verse in a week (and yes, we had to work up to that), here are some things we did:

1. I would write the verse except for a few key words and he'd fill in the blank spaces I left.
2. I would write the verse in yellow highlighter and he'd trace the verse.


HTH
Kelly, wife to Jim since 1988, mom to Jamie (a girl, 1994), Mary (1996), Brian (1998) and Stephanie (2001).

alfenner
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 11:23 am

Unread post by alfenner » Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:21 pm

No "new" info/ideas that others haven't already given, just some encouragement. We started 1st when ds was 6years and 1 month old, and writing one word was a fight, but now we write the verse in two setting, three lines or thereabouts at a time, and there are some days he'd like to finish the whole thing!

cbollin

A struggle to copy Bible verses

Unread post by cbollin » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:41 pm

Eve wrote:My 7 yo boy is struggling with writing. It is a struggle to get him to copy his Bible verses, and I have limited it to just one line a day until they are finished.

My other children did more tracing of words before copywork when they were younger. If I have my youngest trace letters he is much more confident and not as upset. But If I have him try to copy out work, even if it is one word at a time, he says it is hard.

Would you keep going, making him do the work? Or would you have him trace more work until he is more confident. I understand that boys take longer in learning to write because it takes longer to develop those finger muscles. This child has probably been the least interested to write or draw or color of all three of mine. He would much rather throw a ball or run outside or jump on the couch!!! LOL He is very much of a large motor skills boy. I find he does well if I have him write in sand..etc..

What do you think, and do you have any advice for me? He LOVES learning to read and does fine in that category. But he even hates underlining. I end up just marking them as he reads through them. Am I spoiling him???

Thanks, Eve
random ideas....

Let him trace if it helps. He just may need more time.

For the workbook pages, I just read a neat idea recently where someone was using a marker instead of a pencil to help make it more fun for her student. maybe that would work? Or let him just trace the "marking the vowels" with his finger. My child who hated to write (at that age), seemed to like working at the dry erase board and chalk board.

Also -- consider a pencil grip to help with holding a pencil.

I've got something in the back of my mind wondering if he is having trouble seeing lines on a paper to know where to start his letters. I have special needs kids so I sometimes think odd things about stuff like this.

RachelT
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Unread post by RachelT » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:28 pm

It sounds like a great idea that you are already letting him break the writing assignments down into smaller portions over several days!

My kids love to pull out the Wiki Stix, playdough or clay, Lauri textured letters (from MFWK), sand trays for fun practice.

For a time it helped my ds to write on blank paper, so he didn't get frustrated by not being able to place the letters exactly where they belong on the lines. Maybe he could try blank paper or a blank dry erase board.

Some other fun things that have helped us with writing:
Giving the choice of using colored markers or colored pencils, and he can also choose the color.
Sometimes it seems easier to stand at the easel and write on the dry erase board or chalk board.
Writing on a small personal sized dry erase board.
I have even taken a photo of his writing on the dry erase board to print off, so we can have something permanent to keep. I wonder if you could incorporate that into your notebook?

I also found a large package of golf pencils at an office store and they are about half the length of a regular pencil, so they are not as heavy to hold. We have colored pencils that are the same size and one big eraser!

I don't know what others would say, but sometimes when my ds gets frustrated, I "help" him by placing my hand around his and guiding it. I hold it very lightly so he is doing most of the movement, but this seems to help him.

I have also worried about these issues this year, but after looking into it online, talking to my husband pediatrician, and hearing others mention it on this message board I think that some fine motor skills delay is very normal for a young boy. I have also looked up information on the internet about all of this, but most of the occupational therapy types of activities are similar to the things listed above. I did get a turkey baster for him to play with in the bathtub (to strengthen hand muscles) and he likes to squeeze a "stressball". A friend also suggested using salad tongs or tweezers to pick up small objects (cotton balls, beans, etc.) to strengthen those muscles.

I hope some of these things might help you out! Good luck!

shera
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:38 am

Unread post by shera » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:59 pm

It is normal for a boy to have difficulties with fine motor even up to as late as 8 yrs old. In fact some people say not to put a big emphasis on handwriting with boys until closer to 8 yrs old. The golf size pencils can help along with the really fat primary pencils. My ds's handwriting improved once I gave him a fat pencil. Fat crayons work as well. Both of these also produce a greater drag on the paper helping kids to "know" where there hand is on the paper. I studied Occupational Therapy in school and that is what they told us. Clay or playdough can help strengthen those muscles as well. In fact what we used to do is hide pennies or beads or other small objects in the play dough so the kids had to dig the objects out and strengthen the fingers. Another thought I have is could he use magnetic letters or something like that to spell out the answers and only do write when you are specifically working on handwriting. I don't know if that would work because as of yet I have not used MFW but I am considering it for next yr.

momto6
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:35 pm

Ideas

Unread post by momto6 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:08 pm

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:58 pm
Well... I do have a ds who does not like to write much. I usually let him have a break and tell him we will come back to it later when he is not frustrated. It works really well for us as long as I make sure I stick to my word and we do come back to it later that day.

I have also put a VERY SMALL piece of candy at the end of each row and let him have it when he has done his BEST work... I am not sure if that is a very good thing to do but it works if I don't have time to come back to the lesson later (smile)

Becky (MI)

RachelT
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

writing struggles

Unread post by RachelT » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:04 pm

melodylw wrote:I was wondering if I could get some ideas for encouraging neatness/improving letter formation with my 1st grader. My DS enjoys handwriting but gets frustrated easily when it doesn't look right.

I've had to divide the proverbs copywork sheets into two days just because of frustration and focus issues....I'm also thinking about just having him use thicker lined paper for the workbook stuff and just 3 hole punch everything to keep it together... Does anyone have any other ideas out there....
Yes, we did almost all of the Proverbs over multiple days. I see no problem with using a different kind of paper. Again, we have used the HWT wide lined paper, and I also have a pad of 3 lined paper with lines that you can kind of feel, like a little bump on the paper.
I love that this curriculum has a lot of writing (and cutting) because I know this will greatly benefit DS in the long run:-)
Yes, it is good, but don't be afraid to make it work for your student if it's too much. My son is actually in Occupational Therapy this year for all of these motor skills. They are not only working with him on fine motor skills, but even doing things like pushups on an exercise ball or vertical pushups against a vertical wall to strenthen his shoulder and upper body muscles.

I hope some of these ideas help you find some solutions!
Rachel
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/

Lainie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:33 am
Location: Tualatin, OR
Contact:

Unread post by Lainie » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:22 pm

Hi Mel,

Our ds finished MFW 1st last year. We had the same issues too. I just wanted to let you know that his stamina increased over the year and well as his fine motor ability.

We took the Proverbs copy work over a couple of sessions. Sometimes it was over different days. But often it was just a matter of breaking it up over the course of a day.

He has such a great attitude for all things school but any type of copy work brings him to tears. It wasn't making any sense especially when he joyfully does note booking in CtG. It finally clicked that perhaps it was an eye issue. A couple of things have led us to pursue an evaluation with a special eye doctor who treats convergence issues (when the eyes don't track together correctly). We won't know until November if this is an issue for him or not. Sorry, got off track there.

I just wanted to encourage you in the fact that it is early in the school year (I'm assuming) and that he will increase his ability and stamina as the year passes. They grow sooooo much this year. Lots of things click into place.

I was content with seeing progress instead of perfection (hard for me) and I can look back at last year and see amazing growth. There were times when it seemed so slow. But it was where he was at and he's made leaps and bounds since then.

I'll be praying for the Lord's leading on this for your family...
Lainie (Oregon)
"Sanctify them in truth; Thy word is truth" John 17:17

Have completed 1st, entire 5 year cycle, and all high school! Whoo hoo!
Have graduated one with MFW, 1 dd- junior, and 1ds- freshmen
http://mishmashmaggie.com/

mgardenh
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:55 pm

Unread post by mgardenh » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:14 am

Our dd handwriting improved greatly over this summer between MFW1st and second. She now has very amazingly neat handwriting compared to 1st. Just want to encourage you that time and practice could help. We were considering getting her pt based on how bad her handwriting was. We had her tested this fall and now she doesn't need it.
Mike
DH to Laurel
SAHD (mostly) to
Julia - 10 years old, Explorations to 1850
Alexis-7 years old, Explorations to1850 see her story at
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/alexisg
Have used MFW, k, 1st, Adventures, and ECC, CTG, RtR

Wendy B.
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:27 pm

MFW 1st DS is not interested in Bible Notebook

Unread post by Wendy B. » Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:15 pm

momofsix wrote:We've been doing the proverbs verbally.

Ds is bright but, as are most boys at this age, just not fond of handwriting. I was thinking I should make him write but I just don't want him to relate it to the Proverbs. Just looking for some input, Thanks :)
I set a timer and had him do copywork for x number of minutes. As the year progressed I had him do a little bit longer each month or so. By the end of the year you could do the whole verse at one time.

HTH
Wendy B.
Graduated ds '08 & dd '09
Homeschooling ds 11 & dd 8 using RtR
completed: MFW 1, ADV, ECC & CtG.

Julie in MN
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: MFW 1st DS is not interested in Bible Notebook

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:32 am

Wendy B. wrote:I set a timer and had him do copywork for x number of minutes. As the year progressed I had him do a little bit longer each month or so. By the end of the year you could do the whole verse at one time.
Yes, definitely spread it out for a child who doesn't like to write. I don't know if this will encourage or discourage you, but my ds was in 8th grade before he really found it an easy task to copy out a Bible verse :~ He basically went from spreading it out over the week, to spreading it out over two days, to doing it in one sitting with great pain 8| , to doing it easily.

Some folks take the stance that kids learn to tolerate more writing by just doing it. I've seen that work, too. If that is going to be your tactic, then I probably wouldn't use the Bible for copywork & writing endurance, as you are saying. But if you decide to go the gentler route, then I think using the Bible verse makes sense to me because that's the best thing to be copying.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

blazingacres
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 7:19 pm

Re: MFW 1st DS is not interested in Bible Notebook

Unread post by blazingacres » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:22 pm

Why not just read the Proverbs like a story, and let him draw his outside activities? I have a daughter who would draw, draw, draw on everything, so we are going to use the notebook, but I also purchased a drawing pad & she draws everything she does outside......like honey on bread by the ant den. Would he be more interested if he could take it outside & draw his science projects? Then, he could write a short narration of what he did.

MelissaM
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:52 pm

MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by MelissaM » Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:54 am

kanderson wrote:We are a little ways into MFW 1st and have been doing the Proverbs copy sheets as scheduled. My question is do any of you have to "hover" over your children when they are doing this?

It seems my son would NEVER finish unless I read the words off letter by letter even though the copy is sitting right in front of him. I understand the purpose of the sheet is for handwriting so I figure it's okay for me to help him. He has no problems memorizing them or anything like that. I know doing their work independently comes in it's own time, but I just wonder if anyone could give me some tips on how to get him to try doing it without so much of my help.
Thanks!
~Kristin
I haven't used MFW 1st yet, but I've done copywork consistently with dd (4th now).

I would say, yes, hover so you can make immediate corrections. Not to be like nagging, but just so bad habits don't form in terms of posture, pencil grip, strokes, etc. This is my take on copywork, anyway. Probably by the end of this year you will not need to hover quite so much because forming the letters correctly will be a habit that he's worked on consistently, so it will be more 2nd nature. Unless he just needs you near to be a cheerleader - my dd needs a lot of cheering on in math. ;)

HTH,
Melissa
:)
Melissa
DD13
DS10
DS5
DS2

jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by jasntas » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:11 am

Would it possibly help if you lightly wrote it out in pencil or with a highlighter for your ds and just had him copy over your handwriting. I've done this at times (esp. at first) with my dd because she wasn't confident enough with her own writing and the verse seemed sooo long to her. She sometimes still forgets what direction some letters go. We also sometimes spread the verse out over 2 or more days. My dd is beginning to do it more and more independently. Sometimes with no help at all. My 4th grade ds still struggles with copy work but he has other issues. (we believe it's dyslexia with him). What I do with him is give him 1 or 2 lines at a time to look at. (He has a tracking problem and gets lost on the page easily.) But this may work with a younger student as well.

Just some ideas. HTH
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

kanderson
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by kanderson » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:19 am

Thanks Melissa. He doesn't have any trouble forming letters or anything and his handwriting is really good, spacing is good etc. He just cannot seem (or doesn't want) to look at the sheet and remember what to write on his own sheet even though it's right in front of him - it's like he gets lost or something. He will look at the sheet and read the word and then go to write it on his own and completely blank out. I don't know if he is trying to memorize the spelling of the word or what. He reads well, even most of the more challenging words.

I guess my question is more like how do I get him to copy the word down letter by letter rather than me having to say "write P, now r, now o, now v ..... etc.". Maybe I am expecting too much at this age? He is my oldest and has always excelled at his schoolwork so I don't really have a good frame of reference as to what is the norm (although I know all kids are different, of course). I hope this makes some sense :~

Thanks Tammie - a tracking problem seems to be the issue. Maybe I could cover up the verse except for the line he is working on. I also like the idea of writing the verse with a highlighter for awhile so he can trace, since his handwriting is already pretty good, I don't imagine it would hurt to do that sometimes while he gains some confidence with "looking and copying". Thanks for the help ladies!
Kristin
married to dh since 2001
ds-9 ECC
dd-6 1st,
ds-4 MFW Pre-School/ Rod and Staff,
dd-2, into everything!
one in the arms of Jesus

http://wefruitfullymultiplied.blogspot.com/

MelissaM
Posts: 161
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by MelissaM » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:38 pm

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. If you think it's a diligence/attitude sort of issue you could try setting a timer. I used to tell my dd that we were only going to work for 10 minutes but during that 10 minutes she needed to work well and be diligent. Do her best and stay focused, etc. If she got done before the timer, the rest of the time was hers to do what she wanted. (I may have set it for 15 or 20 mins at the beginning, I can't remember.) If she didn't get done but was working diligently, it was fine; just put it aside and finish the next day or the next day copywork is scheduled (if you don't do it every day). If she didn't work hard at it she'd lose some free time because when the timer went off, we'd put it aside; but after we'd gone through the rest of our subjects, she'd have to go back and finish up her work.

I love using the timer - totally takes me out of the equation; I'm not nagging them, the timer is, LOL.

Helpful? If not, just ignore me!

:)
Melissa
:)
Melissa
DD13
DS10
DS5
DS2

kanderson
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by kanderson » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Very helpful Melissa! I think I might try the timer idea as well and see what works best for us - Thanks :)
Kristin
married to dh since 2001
ds-9 ECC
dd-6 1st,
ds-4 MFW Pre-School/ Rod and Staff,
dd-2, into everything!
one in the arms of Jesus

http://wefruitfullymultiplied.blogspot.com/

TriciaMR
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:43 am

Re: MFW 1st Proverbs sheet question

Unread post by TriciaMR » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:27 am

I "hover" with my boys too. One of them doesn't really need me to be there, but I'm watching for incorrect formation of letters (and reversal of b/d). The other one needs a little more help. I put pencil or pen (or some object that won't roll) above the word (or letter) he is copying. He'll also lose track of which line he is copying too, so I'm there to help remind him which line to go to. But, I want him to copy, not trace, so I don't do that with him.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog

cbollin

Bible Verse copywork in 1st grade

Unread post by cbollin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:48 am

aylin wrote:I am using First Grade with my 7 1/2 yo son. He had already done the first half of first grade in a worktext curriculum, but we're now on day 22 of MFW and he's enjoying it alot more.

My question is about the Bible copywork. When my son writes the sentence of Animal Tales, it take him about 5 minutes, but the Bible verse takes 20-25 minutes. I do ask him to write nicely, and he cannot read many of the words in the verse, and he also works hard to put each word on the correct line and space as in the Teacher Guide example. So I think these things take him longer. He is not fooling around at all - just concentrating really hard.

I'm wondering if anyone else has had a child who need so long for the Bible copywork. I feel kind of bad that it takes that long!
Mexmarr wrote:I was just talking to my husband about the EXACT SAME THING. The Animal sentence does phase her. The Bible Verse is "SOOOOOOOOO LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG."

Oh, and she is also 7 and had done half of 1st grade in a textbook curriculum, too. However, she does read well. She doesn't care if the spacing is correct or not. She is NOT working diligently, but rather bemoaning how long it is going to take her. She CAN do it quickly once she gets going.
When my children had that problem with the Proverbs copywork, we decided to just write a line a day instead of whole verse in one day. Slowly over the year it got easier.

I would read the verses to her. Keep the book in front of her. And let her call out each letter as she was writing.

-crystal

TriciaMR
Posts: 998
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:43 am

Re: Bible Verse copywork in 1st grade

Unread post by TriciaMR » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:40 pm

Yes, I have one perfectionist twin that tries to place everything "just so" and it used to take him 20 or 30 minutes. But, now we are at week 16 (lesson 73-ish), and it takes him 10 to 15. I was surprised this Tuesday how quickly he finished. (My other twin is dyslexic, so I use StartWrite software to type it up for him to trace, because otherwise I have to sit him a tell him how to form each letter. Sigh.)

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog

Julie in MN
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Bible Verse copywork in 1st grade

Unread post by Julie in MN » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:34 pm

My ds didn't do 1st at home, but from 3rd to 7th, he often took the whole week to finish the verse :o)
In 8th, I had him copy the 1st grade Proverbs and he could do one in a day!
Julie :~
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

kanderson
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Bible Verse copywork in 1st grade

Unread post by kanderson » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:36 pm

That's about how long it took my ds 7 to copy the Proverbs verses when we started, but we are about 100 days in and he seems to be moving a little faster.
~Kristin
Kristin
married to dh since 2001
ds-9 ECC
dd-6 1st,
ds-4 MFW Pre-School/ Rod and Staff,
dd-2, into everything!
one in the arms of Jesus

http://wefruitfullymultiplied.blogspot.com/

aylin
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:22 pm

Re: Bible Verse copywork in 1st grade

Unread post by aylin » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:19 pm

I'm glad to know we're not alone! I think one of the hard things about homeschooling is not knowing if what your child does is "normal." I'm always happy to hear that others have had similar experiences.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests