Math - Should I challenge a child who's advanced in math?

[Julie in MN]

Here is the short story. DD finished K and moved onto 1st. I just feel very much like I am not doing enough math with her. I just can't seem to wrap my head around what it is exactly I am to do with it every day. I see the grid in the teacher's manual, then I see the other pages with Math Boxes, games and so on. Frankly, I seem to not be getting the extras plugged in enough. We've played cafe a few times. We do the number of the day (not sure I'm doing that right either, anyone want to email me an example of one that is completed) You know, this all sounds so dumb of me, but I just feel like I'm not doing MFW 1st math the "right" way and that she will not be ready for the next step. Hence, the need I feel to buy a "package" math curriculum. I did create a math notebook with a Calendar, 100 Chart, tally mark and number of the day page in it. We do that daily. (and, sorry if I have asked this before...)

Hi,
Here's a post with a photo of the number-of-the-day sheet:
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... =25#p54391

And here's a thread that I think has some good conversation about doing 1st grade math. There are other threads in the 1st grade archives as well, and some of those may give you more specifics. This one shows an interesting progression of Cyndi posts (hi Cyndi!) -- initially she plans to use Singapore, but in the end she doesn't need it. And as I understand it, her dd is very good at math
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4724

Julie

[Cyndi (AZ)]

Hi Julie! *waving*

Well, isn't it nice to have your little story captured on a thread like that? LOL!!! *blush*

(What's nice is that never once have Julie or Crystal said, "I told you so" to me. Yes, they really are that wonderful.)

But, yes, Melanie, I would suspect that you are doing plenty of math with your first grader without realizing it just yet. I never would have thought that MFW1 math lays such a complete foundation. By the end of the year when I saw how my dd's brain would engage to solve a problem, it was really amazing. All of that repetition with the number of the day and calendar, etc., works. The Lit books are awesome! And the cuisinairre rods and blocks do a fantastic job of developing critical thinking skills.

My dd is no math genius, but she is confident and thinks of math as "easy." I'm very thankful for that. But I've learned to take it slowly and follow the plan instead of pushing ahead -- having a girl who thinks math is easy is worth it!

[Wonderobyn]

I don't have any earlier experience to go on, so I thought I would just share some of the things I do with number of the day in case any of it will be of use to anyone.

We start with the 100 chart and fill in the new number and then count by 1s, 2s, 5's or 10's from the beginning or count backwards from the new number to 1. Next we do the coin cup and bean cup activities. Then I always have some type of hands on activity to count to the number. Today we threw a tennis ball across the room into a big box until ds got it into the box 49 times (49 points). He really enjoyed this one. At the beginning with the small numbers (up to about 15) I had him go around the house and bring me __ number of items of a certain color. After that we started counting the pattern blocks (__ number of _______ shape, or pennies or beads or marbles (I have a tray with raised sides to keep the marbles contained) or stickers on a piece of paper - basically anything small enough to fit 46 of them on the table. I have also filled a bowl with water and added a drop of food coloring and had him count out 37 tablespoons of liquid into another bowl. After these activites, I have him hit my hands (right and left alternately) ___ number of times. With the smaller numbers I had him use the manipulatives to do equations (10 squares on one row plus 4 squares on the second row equals 14 squares). I had him write each equation that he did in a notebook. Now that we are almost to 50 we use the calculator to do the equations and write them in the notebook. DS with autism has a really good memory, so for him this works well. I don't know how well it works for others. When we are done with this we fill in the blanks on the number of the day fill in paper. DS is starting to understand the connections and is starting to make his own equations besides the ones that I suggest. If anyone else has other ideas, I would love to hear them. =)

[erin.kate]

We did MFW K two years ago and MFW1 last year. I too felt the *need* to do Singapore, so I bought IA and Gracie plugged along through it. Big mistake. Once I realized that MFW1 was plenty and age appropriate I dropped Singapore and went back to MFW1 as is. Gracie was perfectly prepared for second grade and she can think more mathematically as a result of the MFW1 math components. With my next three rising children we won't stray from MFWK or MFW1 math ... my .02.

[MrsRobinson]

You are all so helpful! I think I'm gonna stay with it and use these wonderful ideas that you have all shared with me.

Thanks so much!

Melanie

[erin.kate]

I have already ordered MFW1 for DD next year. (Yay! Can't wait til it comes!) A little background on us before my question.... DD is 5 (bday is Aug). We've been doing a mix of stuff for K. For math, we began with Saxon K in the fall. I found it to be too easy for her, so I began Saxon 1 with her in January. She's doing well with it and I like Saxon's program, but I'm not sure what to do now.

I've been reading up on MFW and like the more visual/hands-on approach taken with math in K and 1. I just don't know what to do now that we've begun Saxon 1 mid-year. Part of me wants to begin MFW1 in August. Especially b/c she's been showing a little frustration with addition sentences using numbers vs. pictures to represent the numbers. (Does that make sense?) But then I worry she might be bored with MFW1 for math next year if we keep up with Saxon? OH how I wish we found MFW from the beginning!

Any thoughts and experiences with MFW1 math would be appreciated! I just saw a post about someone LOVING MFW1 math. Any details?? Thanks in advance!!

I think that MFW1 math is fantastic. It is just exactly what a child of that age needs and will grow from in terms of thinking mathematically. Last year we did MFW1 and I unfortunately supplemented with another math program ... I SO wish we had not done that! I know that many moms like to do that, but I wish I had trusted MFW more from the start. So, this year my K'er (not doing MFWK) has her own math and she's quite "ahead" of whatever. Next year she'll do MFW1 and will only do MFW1 math. There will surely be things she has not learned yet, things that will be review, and things that she will experience from another way of thinking about math. It is rich and full when used to its potential, including the living books selections. You will be able to pick up with your other math come 2nd grade and all will be well. Really, either way it is fine, but honestly, MFW1 is well done and it's good to trust.

[♥nbamaboyz]

I agree with erin!
The wb is filled with a great range from easy to more difficult.
I don't think you will be disappointed at all using totally MFW.

[MelissaB]

Hi,

We are one of the MFW1 users who love the math program. Here's a brief overlook at why:

We've used Math-U-See (Awesome program) and Abeka both for K & 1st. I think MFW is better than those curriculums in K & 1st grade. Here's why:

1. Concrete. They can see it, touch it, do it. That sticks much better, at this early age, than counting pictures.

2. It's real. MFW's methods (setting up a small store, etc.) help children apply math to every-day-life, so it seems more real.

3. Using MFW K & 1st Math, our daughter learned to count money. She fully understands ones, tens and hundreds place value, can count to 100, add, subtract, etc. All of the things advanced Kindergarteners and 1st graders can do - and she's enjoyed learning how to do it.

4.You know how a young child tends to sometimes get frustrated doing a workbook page? That doesn't happen with hands-on, concrete material. And they're still learning the same things - just with a greater dimension in their understanding of it.

5. It's fun. I know ... that's a little scary. But we've now taught 3 curriculums at the K and 1st level, and based on our experience, this one is the best. It's really OK that it's fun: it's still academically full.

With MFW, the student isn't getting bored. It seems like a child at that age is more of a kinetic learner (Anyone have a Kindergartner that isn't?).

Whatever the reason, we love MFW math. All three of the curriculums we've used for math are good curriculums. So, for Moms who are starting MFW in 2nd grade or later, It's OK. Your child will still achieve great things in life! We just like MFW the best.

[Julie in MN]

I think you can continue with what you like, or try MFW math and keep the other on hand for those days when you want to do something different.

But I'll just say that I have a personal belief that "doing math" via abstract symbols (e.g. 2 + 2) at too young of an age is often an exercise in memorization rather than an actual understanding of "math." I know it's hard holding back when all those inexpensive math workbooks beckon and the child feels so grown-up and successful. I even remember in my own K/1st days reciting math facts on the playground and feeling so very smart &) &) But I don't think I really understood or applied those pronouncements that I thought were so impressive.

This might seem surprisingly contradictory, but I am a better-late-than-early gal not because I don't think math at an early age is important, but because I think it is too VERY important to risk getting it in the brain the wrong way

Julie

[gratitude]

My second born, ds6, has had the opportunity to learn math through MFW. He did MFWK last year without any supplements. He is doing MFW1 this year with a page or two from Singapore 1A instead of the math book in the deluxe package. He has Loved math! So how does it come to teach math. I have no idea. It seems so simple, and sometimes feels like we are hardly doing anything for math at all. Then ds6 came along tonight in 1st grade innocence and asked what is 2 x 2; after I gave the answer of 4, he asked why is it the same as 2 + 2? So I showed him with pens why they are the same. I give this example not for the content, but for what it really shows as the amazing part of the story: He is thinking about math. He is trying to figure it out. Somehow MFW activities have given him a desire to 'know', 'understand' and search the 'why' of math and how it works in the real world. I do wish I had trusted MFW enough in the beginning to do MFW1 math with my oldest.

A happy note. My oldest has learned money, and more and more of the real life math by watching and participating in younger brothers MFW math; but the most benefit does go to the one doing the entire program.

So you could go either way, as has been said. You could use the math book in the deluxe package or do a little Saxon instead with MFW1 math. Either way math will be learned, but MFW1 math is fun.

[kw4blessings]

Thanks to everyone for your responses!! I have so much good information and thoughts to ponder over now. I think my DD would definitely benefit from the concrete descriptions at this point. We just got to the double addition memorization in Saxon (I was a little surprised b/c it seems too soon compared with counting pictures) and have faced a little frustration. I think we'll pause with Saxon for now as I do not want her to hate math! Thanks for all the encouragement. We just borrowed some math games from a friend and I think we'll play those for now as well as counting money, cooking with measuring, just having fun! Thanks for reassuring me that fun is OK as long as we're learning

You all have helped give me more confidence about using MFW1 math alone starting this fall! Thanks, and blessings to you all as you carry on with your precious blessings!

[far above rubies]

I am extremely impressed with the 1st grade math.

As in K, in the beginning I was skeptical of the Math, even though this is my 2nd time through K! It wasn't until I listened to the CD Workshop that I got it.

And as for 1st grade math? Oh WOW! I've heard so many folks ask if it was enough, and all I can say is, you betcha!!!! Especially if you're able to do the CBM along with what's already there!!!

I came close to just putting her straight into CLE for 1st grade math (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now that I have the manual and materials, this will be far better for her. She's an extremely hands-on learner, which is why I knew MFW K would be so great for her (and thanks, also, for the CD workshop, which cleared up a few things. )

And again the folks at MFW know what they're doing. This curriculum has been successful and popular for years and holds its value for a reason. I have friends who say when they buy it used or at a swap, they still pay at least 60 to 75%.

I can't believe we're nearly done with our school year or that we nearly didn't do ECC. And unless I can find other things I need to purchase, LOL, this was our last Box Day until 2013.

[cbollin]

DD is through the first quarter of 1st grade. She's loving it, but I'm wondering if the math isn't becoming too rote and too easy for her. That math boxes and simple addition and subtraction are very easy for her. She completes the number of the day sheet in a couple of minutes. I was sort of wondering about doing MFW1st math through the first semester and then moving to Singapore 1A for second semester. Talk me out of or into that please?

it might be helpful to know what day of school you're in?

not going to talk you in or out of it....

The topics in 1st grade math are repeated in 2nd semester. If you feel she's ready for 1A at 2nd semester.... do it.

I'd wait and see how the other topics go for rest of semester and take it from there.

you could still do the complete book of math in 2nd semester.. and read more library books. Also... are you doing the animal patterns books?

-crystal

[MuzzaBunny]

Thanks, Crystal. She's on day 43. Doing counting by 2, 5, and 10's to 200 today and recognizing place values to 100s place. We do the pattern blocks book on Expl. Day and she really enjoys that. We do 1 or 2 math library books per day.
I just don't know. I really like 1st math and I do *not* want to rush her. She loves the pages in the CBoM too.

[Julie in MN]

you could still do the complete book of math in 2nd semester.. and read more library books. Also... are you doing the animal patterns books?

I was glad to hear you're already doing the CBOM (with activities) and the pattern blocks. They are great. I know sometimes folks forget those kinds of things.

Okay, I haven't taught 1st grade to any of my kids so I'm just chatting here. But I just think "moving forward" with math doesn't need to mean "getting out the workbooks." Yes, some kids think those are cool, and they may not hurt. But I'm just of the opinion that the main purpose of worksheets is to have a "language" of math for applying the real math to record-keeping, computer programs, etc. I don't look at them as being the "real math," itself.

When I do a bit of MFW-K with my grandson and we run into something too easy for him in reading, we typically make up a game or an adaptation that makes it harder. He's a boy and he's imaginative, so maybe that's why. Often it turns into math, too. My grandson likes to count how many alphabet cards he gets right in the memory game, and last night he started doing subtraction on his own by lining up mine and his next to each other, counting how much longer his line was, counting both our lines individually and together, basically doing the "real math" with that in several different ways. We also play a lot of board games that can be adapted to use simple addition, subtraction, and multiplication, especially when you use two dice or a card and a die, or when you strategize which ways you can move on a board game, back & forth.

Both my boys (now 16 and 28) are very good at math, and maybe that's because they had a LOT of time just doing hands-on at home before starting the symbols for math (started K at age 6 & almost 6). I feel like they just "get" numbers, because they "did" them physically for so long. (My daughter is pretty good at math, too, but that's a longer story.)

As you can see, I vote for more "real math"
Julie

[Julie in MN]

I'm glad the Animal Patterns book meets your criteria for having real life math and science critical skills applications. It's not about "getting out the workbook". It's about the stuff you mentioned. I don't know if you've used that book or not... but it is about the things you mentioned. it is not do your worksheet in math.

Yes, it sounds like Bunny's family likes that one, and so do you, so we'll surely be doing it when Anthony gets to 1st grade. Right now we're just trying out the Cuisinaire alphabet book.

[cbollin]

ok... I'll say it... You are not holding her back by using the math in mfw 1st grade. If that has any fear in your mind, don't listen to it. I know sometimes it was my case that I was scared if I only did one year of math in one year. or one year of reading in one year... that somehow because it was not difficult that I was bad, wrong, holding back etc..... I listened too long to the misleading info that "we can be at all levels of grades in homeschooling...."

while there are a few exceptions out there where a child is super gifted and will be in college math at age 13.... it is not the normal pace. So, I'm not going to address the extremes. I'm talking the normal, smart, above average first born homeschooled kiddo... MFW 1st grade math is a lot to do. If it is easy, great... it means you are teaching her well and she is learning. It doesn't mean it's time to jump to the super levels.

let's just say you stay with mfw 1st... then wait until the end of the school year... give the singapore placement test... where does she end up? let's just wait and see.

You're day 44 ish... how are those games where you add 3 numbers coming along? I think (reserving the right to be wrong) that skill is something that will tell you if they are just in rote with facts, or if they are getting it. Do not overlook the importance of that skill at this age. It is laying a foundation for regrouping to add more than 2 numbers. I can't explain it right now... I need lunch. But.... how are those games coming along in the other things that are the skills taught in days 33-52?

one of the nice differences in MFW 1st vs. Singapore 1a/1b is all of the applied math and hands on. I think knowing what I know now and having taught math at this level with 3 different learners,... I would not feel any rush to start Singapore math in 1st grade. I think you'd just end up doing the hands on fun stuff in mfw as "side dishes" to singapore and then you'd be saying "but... but... why did I change right now?"

how it is coming along with all of the addition/subtraction fact families? are those quick? maybe?

The goal in teaching math isn't to "start singapore as young as possible and get further ahead." MFW 1st grade math does not hold you back in the long or short term.

anyway... I was hoping the younger moms would have joined in by now instead of listening just to me and Julie banter about the fun of applied math, and it not being do your workbook....

You don't get these days back where school and play are mixed so much that you don't fret it..... you just don't get them back.... and you know what? playing logic and math games with them... goes a long way toward smart math for long haul. way more than do your singapore mental math...
so if you were looking for a reason to not switch... there you go....

-crystal

[MuzzaBunny]

Thanks Crystal and Julie. After sleepingon it and praying on it, I decided that I'd just be jumping the gun. DD likes math right now. She enjoys learning new information as long as I do it in a fun and play-like way. There's just no need to change that now. I may try to figure out some of the topics in Singapore 1A and 1B and introduce anything new in a hands-on, fun type of way, but we'll stick with what works for this year, and MFW1st *works*. Thanks for helping me think it through.

[gratitude]

Just curious if others who have used MFW 1st are pleased with the math. Received all the materials yesterday, looked through them, and I feel like the overall program is a good fit for my 1st grader, but math seems a bit light. She ended kdg doing the 9 family of addition facts, counting by 2's, 10s, 5s, etc., but in MFW, many of those concepts are not introduced until the final 3rd of the year. Thinking I may have to re-work the math a little bit and/or start her on Singapore 1A. Any thoughts?

Yvonne

It sounds like she is ahead perhaps of MFW1 math. My oldest was too and he did Singapore 1A and 1B with MFW1.

I will say though now having since done MFW1 math that there is a lot of benefit to the activities. Perhaps you could start 1A with low pressure and do the activities (ie. store, etc.) with it. The shapes too are well worth doing and the puzzle sheets with them. They teach a number of math concepts.

[yvonneh]

Yes, that's probably what I'll do. I'll work her through most of the activities and just bump up some of the other stuff, then start her in 1A -- low pressure as you said -- second semester.

[MelissaB]

We loved counting real money. I was amazed that by the end of 1st, our youngest dd was counting pennies and dimes together (and nickels?? That was two years ago. I can't remember for certain).

The activity of counting a popsicle stick each day may seem simple, but it gave our daughter a very strong grasp of place value that has helped her in every area of math (multiple digit add'n, subt'n, mult'n, etc.).

You might do Singapore 1A instead of the math workbook that comes with the curriculum. We did Math U See that year, and just decreased the amount of work on the worksheet so we would have time to finish MFW math. I thought MFW was really invaluable. It lays a very solid foundation.

[Mom2theteam]

Speaking from using 1st edition, but owning and having looked at the new....

We started out doing some of the MFW activities and about 1/3 of the way through started on Singapore 1A. We completed 1A and almost all of 1B. We have about 1wk left of 1B to finish at the beginning of 2nd.

[yvonneh]

I guess I have to get used to the idea that I can use MFW as a framework and change it to meet my family's needs. I'm such a rules follower, I feel like I have to do it as written or it's "wrong." Aargh.

[Julie in MN]

I think I'd still try to do as much of 1st grade math as possible. You can never get enough of those hands-on activities "into" your child. My oldest did hands-on at home with no academics until starting kindergarten at age 6, and he's very mathy, manages natural gas wells and uses a lot of math. I theorize that knowing it "in his hands and in his body" from those early years is somehow a part of why he's so good with numbers.

Julie

[gratitude]

I guess I have to get used to the idea that I can use MFW as a framework and change it to meet my family's needs. I'm such a rules follower, I feel like I have to do it as written or it's "wrong." Aargh.

I have felt that way too.

I like what Julie said too of the benefits of hands on math. It really does help them I think.

I have thought more about what I am going to do for my dd6 who will be doing MFW1 for first grade this coming fall. Like your dd6 she can already do quite a bit of math.

I have taught Singapore 1A & 1B twice, MFW1 math once, and higher than both.

So these are where my thoughts have been going:
*Do as much MFW1 math as possible; like Julie said
*Continue Rod and Staff grade 1, instead of the Deluxe book, since she likes it so much (she is about 1/3 through R&S Grade 1).
*Start Singapore 1A either when she finishes R&S Grade 1 or at the beginning of 2nd grade. I think some maturity helps for Singapore since multiplication starts in 1B and 2A can have some challenging material and 3A starts bar modeling for story problems. So my thought is waiting a bit on it still.

So those are my thoughts!

Blessings for your own decision.