Reading - Older child who still needs work on reading

My Father's World uses a Book Basket method to develop a love of learning and enrich all subjects; Independent Reading Time has different goals and methods but there is overlap in book lists and helpful hints
cbollin

Re: reading

Unread post by cbollin » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:40 pm

meagabby wrote:Well, for me I was calling the office for spelling/reading help about a month ago and leaving a message for the 'specialist'. David was the one to return the call.
one of those neat moments for me to realize some of this....

I've heard a LOT of David's workshops and have heard how he was not a top notch reader in school and needed a reading tutor and then finally as an adult realized some of his "disabilities" with reading. I've heard how 5 out of 6 of his kids were advanced readers but 1 who really struggled with reading for a long time.

It's just neat to me to see how God will use our weaknesses to be able to serve HIM by helping others on a similar path.

Thank you David for being willing to share and serve so that we realize that we are not failures as homeschooling teachers even when a child is a struggling learner.

sorry... not a curriculum thing. Just an out loud thank you.

-crystal

RachelT
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Re: reading

Unread post by RachelT » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:39 pm

That is a neat little story, Crystal. Thanks for sharing how David has shared these things with you and others! I finally spoke to him myself for the first time today after using MFW for 3 years! I was in a panic, thinking that my ds won't be able to accomplish everything in ECC because of his own learning challenges, but David reassured me that ECC is the fun stuff that the kids enjoy so much and that they need that! He gave me some ideas to think about the scheduling and the time that is needed with a student who is still more dependent on having me there for reading, spelling, math, etc., but he likened it to when his dad was in the hospital after having a stroke. He said that his dad could understand everyone who spoke to him, he just couldn't speak back clearly. David realized that a lot of people were speaking to his dad in baby talk, like he couldn't understand them, but he didn't need them to do that. Anyway, I guess I needed the reasurrance of speaking to him about it myself. I'll be ordering ECC soon!

I am so thankful that the Hazells and other MFW friends are ready to help when we need it! Even if it's only listening and encouragement that I really need!

Rachel :)
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/

Julie in MN
Posts: 2925
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Location: Minnesota

Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by Julie in MN » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:11 pm

thejohnstonshouse wrote:I am interested in finding out what some of you have done with a struggling reader. Our son completes 2nd grade (ECC) this week. We have also used MFW 1st and Adventures with him. He knew all the phonics blends (could recite the chart) at the end of the 1st grade year. I did not continue any sort of phonics review with him and saw a decline in his ability to remember the blends. I then switched to another spelling program in hopes of restoring those blends, but it moves slowly and he is not covering his most common struggles yet (oi,ay, tion, sion, r controlled vowels, etc). Last week I tested his reading. He comprehends well above grade level, but he failed (big time) the phonics portion of the assessment. He also could only read 60 words per minute and he should be reading 90 wpm. Our conclusion is that his struggles in phonics are making reading more difficult and inefficient for him. That leaves me in a position to need to review phonics. Anyone done this with a 3rd grader? His brother is in MFW 1st so I could have him sit in, but I a little worried I will hurt his feelings/self esteem in doing so. He is extremely bright and clearly understanding his material, he just is working way too hard. Any advice would be appreciated.
Jennifer
P S-We are also having his vision tested as well as he still uses a bookmark to aid in tracking and substitutes inaccurate sight words - a for the, the for is, etc.
Jennifer,
My feeling is that each student needs to have language arts tailored to their needs, whatever those may be. I brought my son home in 3rd grade and he did some K level things (alphabet in order) and some advanced things (e.g. he needed no spelling).

At first I wondered if your son had the problem mine had -- mine learned to read via memorization (before K) and so he was limited to the words he had memorized or could quickly add to his list of memorized words. If that were your son's problem, then a phonics blend on its own might be puzzling, but he wouldn't have trouble "using" the blends in familiar words. For instance, "toil" might be hard but "coin" would be easy, because it was a more familiar word. Is that the case with your son?

Another question I have is about his comprehension being great while his reading is very labored. Was the comprehension test based on listening, rather than reading? Or was it given with no time limit, so the slow reading didn't affect the score? Otherwise, it seems interesting that his comprehension of written material would be excellent while his "reading" would be poor. I'm wondering if there's a discrepancy between what he reads to himself and what you "hear" him read aloud -- since reading aloud can be a very different skill than reading to onesself.

Just a couple of questions that came to my mind.
Julie
Last edited by Julie in MN on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

jasntas
Posts: 469
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by jasntas » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:48 pm

My ds sounds very much like yours. I'm curious to hear the advice you get.

I am just now starting to see him applying what he is learning over to his reading. During his reading time with me I keep a white board or paper handy and if he starts to struggle with a word I write it on the board or paper, breaking it down by syllables and sometimes remind him of the "rule" to apply to that word. That seems to help. It just seems like such a slow process but I think AAS has been a big help and I really like it. I think that in the long run if you learn the rules and not just the words you will have a better understanding in the future as to how to decipher words you don't know.
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

TriciaMR
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by TriciaMR » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:59 pm

Maybe a little "daily drill" before reading, spending 5-10 minutes on those?

Another thing... Not everyone believes that "phonics instruction" should end at the end of 1st or 2nd grade. Anyway, I kind of take a combined approach of phonics and patterns. Often in English, we use so many foreign words without changing their spelling, that it makes things harder. A word like "depot," (we go to Home Depo not Home De-Pot) is common , and bouquet and beau are pretty common as you get older, but I've yet to find a phonics program that says "quet" says "kay."

I'm just saying, we can't always stop "phonics instruction" at the end of 1st or 2nd grade. We still need to continue to teach weird patterns and foreign words as they get to them in their reading.

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
2015-2016 - WHL, RTR
2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
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My blog

RBS in OH
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by RBS in OH » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:25 pm

Hi Jennifer,

Reading 60 words/minute doesn't seem bad at all--to me. My son is nearing the end of 2nd gr.too, so I just "tested" him after first reading this post. He read more than 90, 67, and 80-something words/min. on 3 different tries. The "more than 90" was an easier reading selection; the other 2 were from a never-read-before "Taking Off" magazine. He was reading too fast in my opinion (racing for a good number) and he omitted a few words and mispronounced some other words. I didn't bother to quiz his comprehension on those reading selections (I think he was reading too fast for that) ...And I consider him to ge a good reader! I think the bar of 90 words/min. is a bit high--at least for reading out loud and comprehending well and pausing between sentences. So I would like to offer you comfort on this part of it. I also think that it is quite normal for this age/gr. to be learning to be good readers.

On another note, I went through 2 phonics programs with my children (wasn't using MFW then). I feel it has really helped them. No worksheets were involved, although sometimes the guide would direct us to use magnetic letters or to make 3 x 5 cards for words or phrases to add a more hands-on approach. It could be a good review for your son in the beginning or you could very easily pick up where he needs extra help. ...these are just some thoughts that worked for us.

Another factor that has been so useful toward reading skills is having the kids read to my husband or I every day for 15 minutes. We did this 2 years in a row for 6 months of the school year each. We were pretty disciplined in doing this regularly; sometimes I would let a child sit on the kitchen counter and read to me while I was making supper just to get it done. The "Book It" reading program from Pizza Hut is what motivated the kids and kept us regimented. Incentives can be an encouraging boost.

Be encouraged, as I think your son is reading at a fine pace and it's never too late to continue to work on honing and reviewing skills--this is part of the beauty of homeschooling.
Rachel

ds(14) 8) and dd(14) ;)
We've enjoyed ADV, ECC (2 times), CTG, RTR, EX-1850, 1850-MOD--and now AHL this year!

shaffer96
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by shaffer96 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:11 pm

Speaking as a former elementary reading teacher, I strongly believe that phonics instruction is most effective when done 5 days a week and through 3rd grade. This is just my opinion of course, but I have seen it work over and over again with many kids who were struggling. My dd gets lots of practice in a fun way without being drilled. My advice would be to find a good phonics program on his level and stick with it. You will see improvement I'm sure!

RachelT
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by RachelT » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:58 pm

Hi Jennifer! First, I wanted to speak to this quote from near the end of your post:
His brother is in MFW 1st so I could have him sit in, but I a little worried I will hurt his feelings/self esteem in doing so.
Yes, I have a 3rd grader who is working extra hard on his reading and a 1st grader who is flying by him. They both know that the younger one can read more easily (sometimes she now reads things for him like signs or words in a computer game), but I have never had them work on their phonics/spelling/reading lessons together. I think this has been good for both of them. Even if your children are working on the same skills, I would take the time to work with each of them individually on these skills.
He is extremely bright and clearly understanding his material, he just is working way too hard.Any advice would be appreciated.
My son worked through all of MFW Kindergarten, 1st gr. and was over halfway through Adventures at this time of the year in 2nd grade. He was reading, writing was always hard and he was already doing occupational therapy for that. He knew lots of sight words that we had practiced and could read and spell CVC words. He was doing okay with blends, but needed practice. He struggled with the spelling in SbSS so much that we had to stop using it. We used extra phonics programs for review during the summer between 1st and 2nd grades and I just couldn't quite understand what else to do to make it "click" for him. I had talked to friends who are reading teachers, they gave us leveled books and did some tests.

Finally, we went to a developmental psychologist and she was able to do a complete evaluation and I could finally start to pinpoint the "gaps" in his reading/spelling. He is very bright and his verbal expression and vocabulary are very large, he also can figure a lot out from pictures and context. He comprehends everything read to him aloud, very well. He is very bright. However, he is dyslexic and dysgraphic (handwriting disability). Dyslexia presents itself in different ways and each unique person is a puzzle to figure out, but I was able to get more information about this "puzzle" from the testing. Something we found out is that he has a good capacity for memorizing and recognizing sight words, but he had a very low ability to use the phonics approaches he had learned to "sound out" unknown or "nonsense" words. He still needed another type of instruction and more time for working on those skills. He still reads much more easily than spells. Spelling is always the last thing to "click" for him. Because of the testing, I was able to take the information that I had and found a program that addressed these needs, designed especially for this type of learner. It is taking time and effort, but he is working through it and he is now spelling complete sentences that are within the boundaries of what he has learned, so far.

I am not an expert and I'm not telling you that your child has a learning disability or a "label". I just thought I would tell you our story because I think that sometimes having more information is very helpful and that makes testing a good thing! I am glad we did not spend the next three years trying different approaches before finding out what would really work. We still don't have all the answers, but I can say that I am a better teacher because of the struggles my son has had! Pray and God will direct you.

:) Rachel
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/

jasntas
Posts: 469
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by jasntas » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:14 pm

Hmm, I have often wondered if my ds was dyslexic. (I've often wondered about my dh as well. Seriously, I wonder if it is hereditary. They both have similar problems with reading and spelling.) My ds tends to struggle with just recalling a letter sound or sounds when reading and he adds or deletes letters in words. For instance, when reading a word beginning with sh he will say the sounds for sl or he will stare off into space. I keep waiting for him to outgrow this as it's my understanding this is pretty common in younger students and he is a bit immature for his age. He reads to me every day and still struggles.

As Jennifer plans to do, I had his eyes checked but he was found to only have a slight vision problem. One that doesn't require glasses or any special treatments. I was wondering for our situation if having my ds tested would be a good idea so we could do a better job at pinpointing problem areas and finding ways to specifically work on those areas.

He is also very bright and can recall just about anything that I have read or he has heard that was of interest to him. Especially anything related to animal or plant science or his memory verses, etc.

Sorry about the hijack Jennifer .
Julie in MN wrote:I am curious if this young man does any better when spelling out loud or when spelling while he is standing up/moving.

I ask this because my youngest is so incredibly auditory (and kinesthetic) that it astounds me sometimes. He remembers exactly what he has heard -- far more than I could ever recall -- while he retains so little from what he reads with his eyeballs that it frustrates me sometimes. My youngest is so very different than my older 2 kids -- and definitely different than me!
Julie,

Yes, he does do better when he is standing up, on his knees, playing with something in his hands, etc. It drives ME nuts though. But if it helps him then I try to let it be until HE starts becoming distracted with his movements and I have to make him stop.

I'm totally with you on the frustration level at times. :~ :)
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.

meagabby
Posts: 75
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by meagabby » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:28 am

I just wanted to add a comment here.

We've been tryng to find the right path for our dd who is in 5th grade and still struggles.

We used a different program for K as well as Hooked on Phonics level 1. She quickly learned to read the cvc words and sight words. She completed the tasks presented to her and seemed to understand.
We began MFW in 1st grade using their recommendations and it wasn't until 2nd grade that I noticed she wasn't as interested in reading the books for fun any longer.
I noticed she didn't retain the phonics rules. She began to struggle sounding out new words.
I didn't think of looking for anything remedial or to supplement with.I tried more reading time, read alouds and such trying to help her 'read'.

We are now in 5th grade. We had her tested at the beginning of the year for visual processing delays/issues and found no abnormalities or need for any kind therapy.
Our pediatrician says her hearing appears fine and doesn't suggest an auditory processing evaluation, either.

We've also had to deal with younger sister who reads, comprehends and tested well beyond dd. A great moment to teach that we all have differences as well as gifts and talents. I try hard, and it has been a struggle in this particular area, of reminding her not to compare herself to her sister.

I say don't rush if you think your child could use some refreshing in phonics. I wish I'd had seen the signs early like you are.

Praying for you.
Last edited by meagabby on Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Loving learning with MFW!

thejohnstonshouse
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by thejohnstonshouse » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:32 am

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.
Julie in MN wrote: Another question I have is about his comprehension being great while his reading is very labored. Was the comprehension test based on listening, rather than reading? Or was it given with no time limit, so the slow reading didn't affect the score? Otherwise, it seems interesting that his comprehension of written material would be excellent while his "reading" would be poor. I'm wondering if there's a discrepancy between what he reads to himself and what you "hear" him read aloud -- since reading aloud can be a very different skill than reading to onesself.

Yes, the test was untimed. He could take as long as he wanted to read. It just seems to take a lot of effort to get through each page when he reads. He retains an amazing amount of what is read TO him. He loves the read alouds and Hardy Boys read to him by Daddy at bedtime.
Finally, we went to a developmental psychologist
Rachel, How did you find the developmental psychologist? We found a pediatric ophthalmologist, but the only other resource we have found was is a person who offers tutoring with the PACE reading program.

I appreciate tremendously all the encouragement you all have offered and for your prayers. It is hard for me to see him struggle. I often feel like I am failing him. Thank you all so much for taking the time to give me some ideas.

With gratitude, Jennifer

Julie in MN
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by Julie in MN » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:05 am

thejohnstonshouse wrote:Yes, the test was untimed. He could take as long as he wanted to read. It just seems to take a lot of effort to get through each page when he reads. He retains an amazing amount of what is read TO him. He loves the read alouds and Hardy Boys read to him by Daddy at bedtime.
Jennifer,
If he's a great auditory learner, like my son and Tammie's, then he will learn lots in all his other subjects, so that's taken care of. I wouldn't make him work on reading during history or other classes. If there is good literature you really want him to experience, he will get more out of it now as read-alouds and even audiobooks.

As for "reading class," I agree with keeping him at the level he needs to master. It won't hurt his feelings to do younger work nearly as much as it will hurt his feelings to struggle in reading. There are more essential skills at the early levels than folks realize. I often tell about my youngest, who taught himself to read (by memorization) so his public school K-2 teachers said they had nothing more to teach him; he mostly sat in the corner by himself "reading hard books." I didn't know better any more than his teachers. When he came home in 3rd grade, I found he knew nothing of phonics and word patterns, he didn't know the alphabet in order (couldn't alphabetize), hadn't been taught how to properly form written letters (made up his own way to write), and he didn't like to read nor did he truly know how to read properly. Learning by memorization can really be a hindrance. The basic skills are worthy things to spend time on at any age, and we still do some of them in 8th grade.

This kid who was reading Narnia by himself in 2nd grade went back to reading Nate the Great and Amelia Bedelia at home. And by gently moving him forward over the years, he is right about where I want him to be in his reading now, except that he still learns far more from listening so I let him use audiobooks about every-other-time. That way, he gets lots of modeling on how to handle different styles and new vocabulary, and then he gets to practice it on the next book.

Well, I'm rambling while I'm waiting for my family, but I want to encourage you to work at his level and take as long as you need. Even one of the Hazell boys took a long time to master reading well, but he went to college-level reading only a couple of years after that.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

Lisa M
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:53 pm

Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by Lisa M » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:34 pm

Let me share an encouraging story from my life - I have a very bright 3rd child. She didn't learn the 26 basic letter sounds (using another program) until January of her first grade year. She didn't blend her first word for a few weeks after that. I was really concerned, but even my elementary teacher friends suggested that it wasn't time to worry yet.

In second grade, she still was a painfully slow reader, but we just kept doing a little bit each day. Our little bit was Spelling and reading aloud for 10 minutes a few days each week.

Fast forward to today: She is now 11, in 5th grade, and will be narrating the Easter play. She has been an avid reader, devouring and comprehending books since the middle of her third grade year. I can't keep her nose out of books!

There are certainly children who have undiagnosed learning disabilities, vision problems, etc. But there are also kids who just aren't ready to absorb the material we are presenting them at the time we are presenting it. I have always kept with little bits, consistently, over a long period of time, and tried not to worry if the results were less that I wanted. Then, if things seem very behind at a later age, I address those issues.

I'm not suggesting you ignore your instincts, because you are the best judge of your child's abilities! But also be encouraged that sometimes they just aren't ready to learn what we're trying to teach them, at the time we're teaching it.

And as for a younger sibling "flying by" an older sibling in some area - I have experienced that as well. My oldest, in grade 9, is painstakingly working through Algebra 1. She spends about 6 hours a week, going over and over the problems, gets my help, and eventually gets it. Her grade 7 brother started Algebra 1 in December, is half way through, will be finished in another 8 weeks. He's asked for my help twice. They have started to laugh about it! "You do my math and I'll write your papers" she says. It's part of life to recognize that each person has a different set of skills, that God has designed us that way. It's OK that I won't be doing nuclear physics, but the nuclear physicist probably can't play the flute like I can. Might as well learn that earlier than later:-)
DD 8 yrs homeschool; Junior in PS
DD 2017 10 years homeschool; graduated 2 of 70
DS 2015 Homeschool Graduate; Four year college tuition scholarship
DD 2013 Valedictorian of tiny PS; 10 years home school

RachelT
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Re: Our 2nd grader is struggling with reading

Unread post by RachelT » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:44 pm

Hi! I am glad that what I posted earlier was a help. It's hard sometimes to tell if what I'm writing on a message board is coming across the way I mean for it to be received, since I can't "see" you to talk with you!

Evaluations, assessments, etc. - My son has actually had to go to a Pediatric Ophthalmologist since he was 3.5 yrs old. He had one eye that was legally blind (40/500+ vision) - an amblyopia - and now his vision is 20/40! Praise God! Our Ophth. Dr. has been great! When these reading struggles were showing up I talked to him about it and he said it was definitely not his vision, because it was corrected at that point. So, then my dh (who is a pediatrician) contacted our psychologist at our state children's hospital and we made an appointment to do the testing with her because we knew it was not a vision problem. This psychologist works at the Riley Hospital for Children in Indianapolis, in the Developmental Pediatrics Dept. I don't know where you are or if there is something similar to this near you. Our small town also has a psychologist that does testing here for public school students, but my dh did not feel like she would be very positive or helpful because of previous experiences with her. There might be a good psychologist in your area, you don't necessarily have to go to a children's hospital. I would ask around. You can also ask your own pediatrician or family doctor who they might refer you to.

Tammie - For this year (3rd gr.) we currently use PLL for English and can do a lot of it orally, which is great for my son since writing is still difficult, at times. We can also do PLL on a white board or he can look at the book with me. I looked at Queen's at the homeschool convention, but since it's a workbook, it wouldn't be the best thing for him. We also use Handwriting Without Tears for handwriting instruction and it's really helpful. We use the HWT lines on our paper for copywork of the Bible verses in ECC. For next year, we are supposed to begin Writing Strands 3 as recommended by MFW. I actually found Writing Strands 2 at the convention and picked it up because it looks more like the level that my son would be more comfortable with. It looks like it is a better starting point for him, so we will see how it goes and then he can do WS 3 later. With our former program, we practice sight words, read stories, and we spell words,phrases, and then sentences. So it is lots of LA, too.

Like Julie said, we don't require him to read anything independently right now for information. I read aloud all of our science, ECC, library books, Bible, directions in his math workbook, anything that he needs so that he can understand it. My ds is also a "wiggly willy" and needs to move around, vary activities, and sometimes works for 15 min. and then has to take a break and do 15 min. again later. So I try to use "hands-on" activities when I can. The tiles in Barton help with this, but I also let him sit on a cushion on the chair which allows some movement and sometimes he actually does better if he gets up and moves to another spot in the room for a minute or has something in his hands to fidget with, as long as it's not distracting him. Have you ever heard of Melinda Boring? She was at our homeschool convention and she is great! Check out her website http://www.headsupnow.com and she has lots of little things to try to help these kinds of learners.

I feel like I have already written a lot! If you have more questions, please let me know here or send me a private message. I LOVE My Father's World! We have just needed to go a little different route for my ds's reading and spelling. I think there are other children out there like my ds who love books, but just can't read them when they want to because of undiagnosed learning disabilities. I know how frustrating it's been for my own son and I don't want other children to have to struggle and lose confidence for years because they need a different type of instruction. This is partly because my own cousin that I grew up with was finally diagnosed with dyslexia in 5th or 6th grade, but he already thought he was dumb at that point. He is now a college graduate with a Master's Degree and he is a High School teacher and football coach, husband, and dad, but he still makes jokes about himself and his dyslexia.

Rachel :)
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

reading fluency??

Unread post by gratitude » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:22 pm

4littlehearts wrote:My ds is in 4th grade and is still struggling with reading fluently. He reads aloud very choppy. Doesn't have to sound things out or anything like that, he is just not a smooth reader whatsoever. I only have one boy, so it is hard to tell if this is normal for most boys. My girls are very fluent in their reading even his 1st grade sister can read some of his grade-level material more fluently than he can. Any help would be appreciated.
Someone else will have to chime in for most of this question. I can answer one of them though.

My 1st grade (age 7) boy is reading at a second grade reading level fluently; so at least this boy doesn't have the issue you are bringing up. If it is normal for other boys though I do not know. My K boy (age 5) is reading at a K level fluently.

I hope you find the help you are needing on here soon.

Blessings!

cbollin

Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by cbollin » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:37 pm

What kinds of things is he read out loud?

I know my children benefit in out loud fluency from having audio books, years of listening to things like Reading Rainbow stories, story telling, listening to mom/dad read out loud while snuggled next to them and move their finger along.

Sometimes, it is a normal thing for students to not be skilled at "cold readings" (out loud readings that haven't been read silently one or two times before out loud).

When I was in high school (many decades ago....) I was one of those nerds who did public speaking contests. (placed 2nd in state for 2 years... never got 1st place. but that's alright. LOL) Anyway, the division I competed in was Poetry reading. We would take in our prepared poem and wow the socks off the judges. Then, everyone was given a cold reading to do. We got 1 minute to look over it. Without that look over and practice time, even someone at my level would have had difficulty with out loud fluency. I could have done prose... hated doing extempt. anyway....

It's much easier to perform out loud reading when you have at least gone over it once or twice in your head.

Some children - it just comes easier to do cold readings.

Have your son practice out loud from books/materials that are 'at" or "slightly below" reading level. I hate reading out loud from books that are too hard to read out loud. It takes time to develop the skill of reading out loud so you sound fluency and conversational.

I'm no expert at all. I'm just saying, that some times it is breathing techniques that help with smooth reading, sometimes it is hearing it in your head before it comes out. and sometimes -- it takes practice practice practice. (I say that part to myself as I keep trying to cue this one new routine in my exercise class...... )

Does he get to listen to audio books with the book in front of him to follow along? What about subtitles on favorite DVD's? turn them on and still listen to the dialogue?

-crystal

booklovermom25
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by booklovermom25 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 12:48 pm

Just wanted to say that I have 5 children and although boys TEND to be slower to reach the fluent reading stage, it is really not always a gender issue. My oldest who is a girl learned to read fluently at the age and time that she is supposed to ( by normal school standards), my next one, who is a boy, pretty much taught himself to read and became fluent early. Go figure! My third one is a 9 yo boy and he is still not reading smoothly all the time. He can read well, but it's not what I would say fluent.

Just this morning my 6 yo boy who has been sounding out EVERYTHING like b- a - t, etc. picked up his Bob books and read 2 of them because he wanted to. (This is after being off for a week for thanksgiving.) Now he wasn't reading fluently. He was still sounding things out, but he was reading because he wanted to, and doing pretty well. I was encouraged to see him picking up the books and wanting to read them.

So, don't stress. Keep him reading, reading, reading, and one of these days you will realize he's there, he's a fluent reader.

In His love,
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TriciaMR
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by TriciaMR » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:12 pm

I know you said he's not sounding out... but is he dyslexic? (Dyslexics often read choppy. They will read better in context than lists of words that have nothing to do with each other.)

As for improving fluency, practice below grade level. Allow him a chance to read it to himself first. My dd is actually pretty good at "cold" reading now (since Abeka made her do it ;) ), but with my boys, I now give them the story to read through before they read to me. It helps my dyslexic son if he has a chance to tackle it himself before reading aloud to me. I allow him to come ask me what a word is, and I show him how to sound it out.

-Trish
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4littlehearts
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by 4littlehearts » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:37 pm

Thanks all for chiming in! We have done audio books in the past but they have been very few and far between. We do read-alouds most every school day except I can't say he is following along. Many times he seems like he's in another world, so I have to quiz him to see if he is actually even listening. My dd's age 13 and age 7 are always reading right over my shoulder during read-alouds. They hate to lose where I'm at in the reading. I will continue to read and make him read a lot. I have tried audio books from the library just for him, but it is so hard to keep him focused on following along in the actual book. When we do our family read-alouds, he usually draws during the reading,that is the only way I can keep him focused on listening to the text.

Julie in MN
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by Julie in MN » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:12 pm

The choppiest readers I have worked with are kids who read very fast to themselves. Most read very fast and very well, although a few read to themselves very fast and not so well. So my first question would be about how well he seems to read to himself? Does he read fairly quickly? Does he seem to know what he read (not testing him, but can he talk about the story)? Is the problem only when he's reading out loud?

If he reads well to himself, then I think those kids just need to realize that reading aloud is a whole different egg and they need to approach it differently -- slow down until you're at a speed where you get each word out correctly, stopping to breathe at the punctuation so you listener understands that a new thought is coming next, etc. Sometimes you need to "teach" reading aloud as a different subject. Modeling (which you're probably already doing with read-alouds) and audiobooks can be helpful, too, especially if you point out the techniques being modeled.

If he doesn't seem to read well to himself, either, then I personally would stay at the beginning reading stage until he has it mastered. Fortunately, there are some history biographies and other older topics in the "easy reader" levels these days. My youngest taught himself to read before Kindergarten, but we still spent time on certain early skills through about 6th grade, and I allowed him to read very simple books probably past that age, with regular nudges and a bit of peer pressure (in a book club, since he had no siblings at home), so that he slowly moved ahead. And lo and behold, he read novels like Tom Sawyer in 8th grade without complaint ;)

Julie
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4littlehearts
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by 4littlehearts » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:57 am

Julie,
Ironically he does read extremely fast when reading by himself. Many times I question him as to whether he actually read all of the pages in the specific amount of time. His 7th grade sister who is a very good reader but very slow when reading by herself could not have read the passage I gave him in such a short amount of time. She is one to really stop and think about what she is reading it while she is reading. She doesn't want to miss anything. Her brother, the one who this thread is about, is the total opposite. He has a very difficult time retelling the events of the chapter and even tells me at times that he doesn't understand everything that is going on.

I know he can read it and read it well, but when left to himself to read he is not very careful, doesn't really try to think about what is being read, and I'm sure makes many mistakes in his rushing through. Right now I have him reading Cricket in Times Square. I will have to make it a habit to having him aloud to me more often, I have slacked off in that area in the past year. It is when it is time for him to read aloud to me that I realize his lack of fluency.

1974girl
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Re: reading fluency??

Unread post by 1974girl » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:41 pm

My daugher's public school teacher had the kids read into pcv pipes! It was the crooked kind (joint?) and they'd hold it just like a telephone. They'd talk in one end and hear themselves in the other. They can hear themselves to well that way! They also sell "real" ones like that at our parent teacher store. I wonder if that would help him?
LeAnn-married to dh 17 yrs
Mama to Leah (14) and Annalise (11)
Used from Adventures on and finishing final year (1850-modern) this year
"When you teach your children...you teach your children's children."

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