Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

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gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Fri May 20, 2016 9:46 am

Hello MFW Ladies,

We loved using MFW for many years. I am thinking about coming back to it in the fall for the rest of High school. I have been praying a lot this winter and spring about what direction the LORD wants me to take for the rest of our home school years. I need manageable days with my youngest who has special needs. I have some questions as I try to follow His lead and make some decisions.

My older three this coming fall will be in 7th, 5th, and 4th grades. This puts all 3 of them in the cycle. When we did ECC they were in 4th, 2nd, and first (2013 - 14). Last school year (2014 - 15) I did do ADV a second time with my two middles who at the time were in 3rd and 2nd. All 3 have used MFW1. The middle two also did MFWK. So all 3 have experience with MFW.

We do a lot of Bible in our home so much of the material in CTG would be familiar to all 3 of them. This doesn't mean we shouldn't start with CTG, I just wanted to include that information. My oldest did do Creation to Christ with Heart of Dakota in 2014 - 15 for 5th grade. He would have liked MFT CTG better since he didn't like the Bible being taught through Christine Miller and rather have had actual Scripture.

None of them have done any RTR history, but the older two boys have listened to Diana Waring volume 2 in the car. My oldest has read most of MOH volume 2.

Their American History for all 3 is Adventures and my oldest's extensive history reading that includes more books then I can list. The older boys have listened to most of Diana Waring volume 3 which is world and American history combined. A similar idea to MFW's approach to history in the last two years of the cycle.

So where do we start if we return to MFW in the fall?

I thought of CTG. My second would then have 5th - 8th thru the cycle in order.

I thought of RTR since none of them have had any focus on that era and I like the science in it.

I thought of Exploration to 1850 so my oldest would have whatever preparation is in it and Modern for High school and then the other 2 could cycle back to CTG and RTR for middle school. I also was thinking it might be his only chance for World / American History combined since High school has to have American History focused on solely.

I also just started the Fossils / Evolution for science for my oldest for 6th / 7th grade from Answers in Genesis. It is reading a chapter on his own, writing out objectives to study for a test, and then take the test. I like how it is refuting Evolution and would like to continue it for his 7th grade science. I was planning on Apologia Physical for 8th science. Is that going to work to skip Apologia General? He will be doing Saxon 7/8 for Pre-Algebra for 7th as well.

For things like Progeny Press that are not on the grid do you just put them on the grid?

I was planning on doing WWS for 7th before I felt led to explore MFW again. Does that replace Writing Strands on the grid?

I think those are all of my questions. I look forward to any insights from those of you who have used the cycle. I am not sure how it builds, but I was under the impression there are some skills in Modern to prepare for High school composition. Is that correct? Does it matter where we start?

Thank you! :-)

TravelBug
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 8:03 am

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by TravelBug » Fri May 20, 2016 9:57 am

Hi, gratitude. My opinion as just another homeschool mom: I think the MOST important year of middle school history is RtR because it simply isn't covered deeply at the high school level (I haven't used WHL, yet, but I have seen the S&S and see that RtR seems to cover that time frame with a lot more depth than WHL) and it's just such an important part of history.

The second thought I have is if you feel like your son got a good understanding of Reformation History. I don't believe MOH 2 covers that (I believe that is covered in MOH 3). I'd definitely take a look at the S&S of RtR to double check that you've gotten those important historical reformers! If not, I would just start there to finish the cycle but do understand that there will be overlap with Roman History.

RE CtC: the Christine Miller book is so dense and covers OT thoroughly (but I agree that it's a tough read in the 5th grade!). If you used HOD CtC, you would have also read the scripture scheduled in either the Bible or the Family Time Bible (which is definitely direct scripture with some illustrations). The only reason I'd start back with CtG for your oldest is if you want to enjoy the Feasts or if you really love the new science (I do!). Perhaps you just enjoy OT like me and want to re-live CtG. No harm there!

Your oldest will be required to cover Modern History in High School so I wouldn't be terribly concerned about fitting that in if you want to start back with CtG.

Does that help you to think things through?

Poohbee
Posts: 394
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Location: North Dakota

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by Poohbee » Fri May 20, 2016 9:56 pm

Hello gratitude!

Having now completed the cycle one time and having done every year of MFW, K through 1850MOD (we went a different direction for high school for our oldest), I was intrigued by your questions and thought I might offer my experience from one time through the cycle as we gear up to start our second time through. Your question about where to start in the cycle if you choose to use MFW again is a tough one. There are a number of things to consider, and you've provided great information about what your kids have already covered. I've been rolling it around in my mind for a couple of hours now, and I have a few questions, ideas, and suggestions for you.

One question: Have you talked to your kids, especially your oldest, to see where their interests lie and what they might like to learn next year? As my kids get older, I try to give them more input into various aspects of their education. I ask them for their opinions and try to take that into account in my planning, especially as they get closer to high school. I always tell my 14 yo daughter that it is HER education, and I want her to take an interest in helping me choose subjects and curriculum. Ultimately, the decision is for you to make, but it is nice to have the kids' input, too.

My first inclination was to suggest you start with RTR. It seems that your oldest, in particular, has had quite a bit of study and reading in the CTG period, and since your younger 2 will likely be able to cycle back to that, I guess I would probably suggest skipping CTG for now. I do love the fact that the Bible is the main history text in CTG, and learning about and celebrating the Biblical feasts was extremely special, but in your situation, perhaps your kids have had plenty of study in that era of history? If you want to celebrate the feasts, you could always purchase the book Celebrating Biblical Feasts and just do that as a family on your own. The feasts are often weekend things, anyway.

So, back to RTR. You said you like the science in that. If you would happen to do RTR, I would recommend trying to have your oldest join in on the human body study, even though he has his fossils/evolution study he will be doing, particularly if you will be skipping General Science. The last 4 modules of General Sci. cover the human body, and even though I have not yet used Apologia Biology, it is my understanding that it does not contain a study of the human body. So, unless your oldest has already studied human body, I would recommend he get a study of that in some way next year.

An aside about the science. I don't think it will be a problem for you to skip General Science with your oldest. I have read on some message boards that some people don't do General at all. The thing I think was most valuable about General was that it taught my dd how to write a really good lab report. I like how Dr. Wile really leads the student through writing a thorough lab report in the early chapters of the book. We used the companion notebook, as well, and my dd is very well-grounded in how to write a good lab report. The other really valuable thing about General would be the human body study, since they won't get that in Apologia Biology. So, that would be something for you to consider. Otherwise, you should be fine to skip General and head straight into Physical. Of course, we've only been through each course once at our house, but these are my observations of those two courses.

Back to the MFW cycle. The problem I see with you doing RTR and then EX1850 is that your oldest would miss out on the 2nd half of the American history study of the Presidents and states. Now, he did already do those in Adventures, so he has covered them at least once. And, as TravelBug said, your oldest will get modern history in high school, so you probably don't have to worry about that.

I would say, my favorite option is for you to start with EX1850 followed by 1850MOD so that there is continuity with the American history study, since it has been a few years since you've done ADV, and it will be a few years before your oldest does American history again. Also, my feeling is that many of the books and resources used in the last 2 years of the cycle are more challenging and better suited for older students. Of course, it works well for younger students to join in, but some of the books, such as Building a City on a Hill in EX1850 and the Children's Encyclopedia of American History in 1850MOD are really well-suited for students in the upper range of the recommended age span. That is just my opinion. Also, you alluded to the preparation that 1850MOD provides for high school, especially as far as composition, etc. is concerned. I believe that is true. I haven't yet used the newer recommended writing resource Writing with Skill, but I know that there is a great deal of creating outlines and writing from an outline using the Story of the World vol. 4 activity book, so that is definitely good prep. for high school composition.

It just seems that it would work quite well for you to do EX1850, then 1850MOD, and as you mentioned, when your oldest starts high school, cycle back to CTG and RTR for your younger two, and then maybe you could do ECC again with your third for 8th, since it will have been a number of years since that child has done that year. That would be my personal recommendation for you. For science, if it turns out that you really want to do the astronomy or the human body from RTR, it would not be hard to sub out science from EX1850, in which half of the year is spent on animals and half is spent on Botany. My middle dd and I loved the Botany study, so if you haven't done that, I highly recommend that. If, perhaps, your kids have learned quite a bit about animals, you could easily insert the astronomy study or the human body study instead, as each is done for half of the year in RTR. Just another idea for you.

In regards to Progeny Press guides, Julie MN has posted on some thread how she did it with her youngest son, and that was very helpful to me. I followed her pattern. She, and we, did a PP guide 1st quarter, focused on grammar with those resources 2nd quarter, a PP guide again 3rd quarter, and finally, grammar again 4th quarter. Now, with the new writing and grammar resources, that might be different now, but it definitely works well to do a PP guide during a quarter (roughly 9 weeks) of the school year. You do that twice, and that is great. The other quarters, let your student enjoy free reading.

Since I haven't used WWS yet, and I have older TMs, I can't answer your question as to whether WWS replaces Writing Strands on the grid. Hopefully someone else will chime in about that.

Well, if you've read all of this, I'm amazed! I can get pretty wordy. Sorry about that! I hope I've helped a bit, but ultimately, the decision about where to start in the cycle will really come down to what do you want your kids to study, what do they want to study, and what do you feel will be best for all 3 kids involved and best for you, as the teacher. You really can't go wrong, because you'll cover much of it at some point, and there will always be gaps in our learning. We can't teach them all there is to learn. However, it sounds as though your oldest, especially, is a voracious reader, so that will serve him well, and he'll fill in any gaps on His own.

Just keep praying, and the Lord will guide you! I will join you in prayer! God is so faithful! He'll show you just the right path for you and for your kids.

In Christ,
Jen
Jen
happily married to Vince (19 yrs)
blessed by MFW since 2006
have used every year K-1850MOD
2018-2019: Adventures with 9yo boy

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Sat May 21, 2016 12:15 pm

TravelBug wrote:Hi, gratitude. My opinion as just another homeschool mom: I think the MOST important year of middle school history is RtR because it simply isn't covered deeply at the high school level (I haven't used WHL, yet, but I have seen the S&S and see that RtR seems to cover that time frame with a lot more depth than WHL) and it's just such an important part of history.

RE CtC: the Christine Miller book is so dense and covers OT thoroughly (but I agree that it's a tough read in the 5th grade!). If you used HOD CtC, you would have also read the scripture scheduled in either the Bible or the Family Time Bible (which is definitely direct scripture with some illustrations). The only reason I'd start back with CtG for your oldest is if you want to enjoy the Feasts or if you really love the new science (I do!). Perhaps you just enjoy OT like me and want to re-live CtG. No harm there!
You just inspired me to look at the RTR and WHL table of contents. My understanding was that WHL goes much deeper into the material as the third sweep through the NT and that part of history. It would be interesting to know from someone who has used both if they see WHL taking the information to the deeper level and thus making RTR unnecessary for now. The first half of WHL looks similar to RTR.

I was thinking more in the Exp1850 to 1850Mod since the world history in both I thought was different then the world history in Highschool. Whereas, the USA portions are USA only in High school. Perhaps someone who has used both can help me understanding that portion.

My oldest as a 5th grader went into HOD CTC with a very unusual background for it. I wasn't trying at all to get into a comparison between the two programs. I was more pointing out that I think he would have enjoyed using the Bible as a spine, as CTG does for MFW. He came into HOD CTC knowing more OT then was covered in CTC. He has read at a Highschool level since age 8, and since MFW1 we have had a habit of him orally narrating what he reads so I know that his comprehension is very high. Christine Miller was actually a very easy read for him and far below his knowledge level of both ancient history and OT Scripture. This I think was an unusual background coming into CTC. Yes, he did read the Scripture scheduled in CTC. The difference was that Christine Miller was the spine and the Scripture was a supplement. I was only pointing out that in CTG Scripture was the spine, instead of a book, and I think he would have liked that.

Thanks for the RTR thoughts. They did give me something to think about.

gratitude
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Sat May 21, 2016 12:21 pm

Poohbee wrote:Hello gratitude!
It just seems that it would work quite well for you to do EX1850, then 1850MOD, and as you mentioned, when your oldest starts high school, cycle back to CTG and RTR for your younger two, and then maybe you could do ECC again with your third for 8th, since it will have been a number of years since that child has done that year. That would be my personal recommendation for you. For science, if it turns out that you really want to do the astronomy or the human body from RTR, it would not be hard to sub out science from EX1850, in which half of the year is spent on animals and half is spent on Botany. My middle dd and I loved the Botany study, so if you haven't done that, I highly recommend that. If, perhaps, your kids have learned quite a bit about animals, you could easily insert the astronomy study or the human body study instead, as each is done for half of the year in RTR. Just another idea for you.

In regards to Progeny Press guides, Julie MN has posted on some thread how she did it with her youngest son, and that was very helpful to me. I followed her pattern. She, and we, did a PP guide 1st quarter, focused on grammar with those resources 2nd quarter, a PP guide again 3rd quarter, and finally, grammar again 4th quarter. Now, with the new writing and grammar resources, that might be different now, but it definitely works well to do a PP guide during a quarter (roughly 9 weeks) of the school year. You do that twice, and that is great. The other quarters, let your student enjoy free reading.

Since I haven't used WWS yet, and I have older TMs, I can't answer your question as to whether WWS replaces Writing Strands on the grid. Hopefully someone else will chime in about that.

Well, if you've read all of this, I'm amazed! I can get pretty wordy. Sorry about that! I hope I've helped a bit, but ultimately, the decision about where to start in the cycle will really come down to what do you want your kids to study, what do they want to study, and what do you feel will be best for all 3 kids involved and best for you, as the teacher. You really can't go wrong, because you'll cover much of it at some point, and there will always be gaps in our learning. We can't teach them all there is to learn. However, it sounds as though your oldest, especially, is a voracious reader, so that will serve him well, and he'll fill in any gaps on His own.

Just keep praying, and the Lord will guide you! I will join you in prayer! God is so faithful! He'll show you just the right path for you and for your kids.
In Christ,
Jen
Thank you Jen for all of the information that you typed out! Yes, I did read all of it. I was going to quote all of it, but I decided to shorten it a little.

I do own Apologia General. It is helpful to know that the Human Body is at the end of the book. My interest in RTR was that none of them have had human body. For my oldest it would be an easy solution with Apologia General. When he finishes his Fossils / Evolution next March he could do the last part of Apologia General for the human body for spring (we go until the 3rd week of June). This could be a good lead into Physical as well for 8th. Thank you!

Thank you for the Progeny Press suggestions as well. Do you, or someone else, suggest buying guides for books they haven't read or does it not matter if they have already read it? I love the Bronze Bow and my oldest read it last year. It would be fun to do a guide on it, but if it is better to do a pick that is something new I sometimes need to be reminded of that fact. ;)

Thank you for your thoughts on the history. There is something about the idea of my middle two doing CTG and RTR while my oldest does AHL and WHL that really appeals to me. He has been asking for modern history for a year, thus I am hesitant to hold it off until 12th.

Thank you as well for the prayers! :)

In Christ,
Carin

Julie in MN
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Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sun May 22, 2016 6:51 am

gratitude wrote: My understanding was that WHL goes much deeper into the material as the third sweep through the NT and that part of history. It would be interesting to know from someone who has used both if they see WHL taking the information to the deeper level and thus making RTR unnecessary for now. The first half of WHL looks similar to RTR.

I was thinking more in the Exp1850 to 1850Mod since the world history in both I thought was different then the world history in Highschool. Whereas, the USA portions are USA only in High school. Perhaps someone who has used both can help me understanding that portion.
I did think almost everything was more extensive in high school. For instance, the complete New Testament rather than chunks in RTR, or extensive church history (especially if you use the now-optional church history book), rather than primarily the Reformation in RTR.

World history isnt the focus in US1 and US2, but it is inevitably there when our US history intersects with the world, and of course there's world history in WHL.

The biggest difference to me is that in the family cycle, you get to sit a while in specific areas, like the feasts, maybe try painting upside-down like Michaelangelo, and stop to read about each president. Things go by very quickly in high school.
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

gratitude
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Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Sun May 22, 2016 9:26 am

Julie in MN wrote:New Testament rather than chunks in RTR, or extensive church history (especially if you use the now-optional church history book), rather than primarily the Reformation in RTR.

World history isnt the focus in US1 and US2, but it is inevitably there when our US history intersects with the world, and of course there's world history in WHL.

The biggest difference to me is that in the family cycle, you get to sit a while in specific areas, like the feasts, maybe try painting upside-down like Michaelangelo, and stop to read about each president. Things go by very quickly in high school.
Thank you Julie. I was hoping you would chime in. This was helpful information on some of the differences between Highschool and the family cycle.

Do you have any thoughts on where it would work well to start with a 7th grader who has done ECC, but has not done any of the cycle with MFW? I am wanting to have one main curriculum for 7th - 12th to help keep us on track.

Thank you! :-)

Julie in MN
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Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sun May 22, 2016 9:58 pm

gratitude wrote: Do you have any thoughts on where it would work well to start with a 7th grader who has done ECC, but has not done any of the cycle with MFW? )
Normally MFW would suggest that with younger siblings, it may be best to just begin history in order, possibly skipping CTG if everyone has Biblical history down solid. Travelbug seems to understand the materials youve used, and i agree there is some important stuff in RTR. It's okay for oldest to have a slightly lighter year of history during middle school, while other things are ramping up (science, grammar, math, etc) or to have a little wiggle room to do some middle school things like shop and home ec.

However, knowing how advanced your oldest is, i suspect you may be happiest with EX1850-1850MOD, like Jen mentioned. If kids have a good memory of the state sheets from Adventures, then you could just do more reading/writing about the presidents.
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

gratitude
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Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Sun May 22, 2016 10:10 pm

Julie in MN wrote:
gratitude wrote: Do you have any thoughts on where it would work well to start with a 7th grader who has done ECC, but has not done any of the cycle with MFW? )
Normally MFW would suggest that with younger siblings, it may be best to just begin history in order, possibly skipping CTG if everyone has Biblical history down solid. Travelbug seems to understand the materials youve used, and i agree there is some important stuff in RTR. It's okay for oldest to have a slightly lighter year of history during middle school, while other things are ramping up (science, grammar, math, etc) or to have a little wiggle room to do some middle school things like shop and home ec.

However, knowing how advanced your oldest is, i suspect you may be happiest with EX1850-1850MOD, like Jen mentioned. If kids have a good memory of the state sheets from Adventures, then you could just do more reading/writing about the presidents.
Thank you Julie. It gives me more to think about, but it also helps give me some more information to think about.

It helps to know what MFW would normally suggest. I have wondered that. With my second son going into 5th starting him into CTG would make so much sense. I think he and his younger sister would love the Dr. Wiles science. My main goal for my oldest next year is actually to increase that writing and get him going on some things like WWS and Progeny Press I think could be very useful for him. I see where he is and what is expected in 9th and it feels like a large gulf to cross over in the areas of writing, work load, and increased thinking. In reading and math he will be fine.

Bible education has been one of our primary goals in home schooling. On the thoughts of starting with CTG it has been those of the fact that what is most important to us in their education is the focus in CTG and RTR. We have done quite a bit with the OT and NT with them as a family and in a variety of ways that started quite young. However, as I always tell them they could read the Bible over and over everyday of their lives and they will still have much to learn in it about who God is, what He has been up to in history, and to have their time in Scripture draw them ever closer to Him.

Thank you Julie for some more to think about. I think I will go through the table of contents and pray of where the LORD would lead us.

Thank you! :)

P.S. Would skipping Exp1850 and 1850 to Modern cause any problems, or would it be just fine?

I am wishing when I had done ECC I had just kept going and we would be on target! :) My third was struggling with some of the content in ECC so I was concerned about trying history for her so I did ADV for her and my second son instead. It has actually been one of my concerns of starting American History. At 9 1/2 she still doesn't like hearing much about history and it is hard to imagine her diving into Modern at 10 1/2. She loves missionary stories (gentle ones at this age) and Bible translation, but not much history so far other then Bible.

Julie in MN
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Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Sun May 22, 2016 10:30 pm

gratitude wrote:
P.S. Would skipping Exp1850 and 1850 to Modern cause any problems, or would it be just fine? .
One of the valuable skills worked on in 1850MOD is outlining history. It's just good prep for organizing thoughts and supporting arguments. However, now that MFW has added WWS to its recommendations for 7-8th, it is a nonissue since students will build that skill either way.

Other than that, most of the big points i remember from years 4-5 are repeated later, albeit at a faster pace - things like understanding that different US colonies were established by very different groups if people (pilgrims, entrepreneurs, even prisoners).
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

gratitude
Posts: 677
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Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by gratitude » Sun May 22, 2016 11:15 pm

Thank you Julie! Very Helpful! :-)

I was just looking at the CTG table of contents and remembering how much I loved MFW's Biblical focus. It is much different then the Creation to Christ program that he did. It is covering in one year the first 2/3 of the other. The rest being in RTR.

They do know the Bible history in CTG, but her integration with other cultures would be new for my middle two. We did the first 1/2 of Journey Through the Bible with the Scriptures at some point, but without notebooking.

Thanks!

Julie in MN
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Questions about the Cycle CTG thru Modern?

Unread post by Julie in MN » Mon May 23, 2016 9:11 pm

Glad things are starting to clarify.

I couldnt agree more with what you said here. When i look back, this was most important.
gratitude wrote: Bible education has been one of our primary goals in home schooling. On the thoughts of starting with CTG it has been those of the fact that what is most important to us in their education is the focus in CTG and RTR. We have done quite a bit with the OT and NT with them as a family and in a variety of ways that started quite young. However, as I always tell them they could read the Bible over and over everyday of their lives and they will still have much to learn
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs

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