Worldview - MFW approach to creation/evolution? What age?

cbollin

Worldview - MFW approach to creation/evolution? What age?

Unread post by cbollin »

Omma wrote:We are kind of combining MFW K and another curr. with my 5.5 ds this year. Well, we just got to the Usborne Children's Encyclopedia in the other curriculum, which is obviously based on evolutionary theories. It even has many pictures of witches! I know, because my son scoured the entire book, pointing out what pages he could believe or not believe (and he cannot read, yet!!). He told me that the writers of this book must have been the ones who made the video series, "The Land Before Time". Ever since we did MFW K's indepth study of Creation from God's perspective in the Bible, he has decided that the Bible is right and all the countless material (from museums, TV shows, and books) on evolution, must be wrong.

He asked Jesus into his heart while he was still 3, and yet this subject might have really befuddled him if it weren't for MFW! I am so happy to be doing dinosaurs next week from the perspective of God creating the earth! We have decided to ditch the [book from the other curriculum] (at least right now). What is MFW's recommended age for this (is it around 3rd grade?)

Brenda
ds 5.5
dd 3.5
Brenda, that's an important question. some people think that evolution philosophy (or even other religious beliefs) should not be taught until much older (upper elementary and up) and others don't think that early exposure in the proper context (telling the student that this view is not what the Bible teaches) is a big issue. Your ds has early discernment. I think he will enjoy the Dinosaur books that are recommended by MFW. They are published by Institute for Creation Research (icr.org) and they have lots of resources for all ages if you wish to supplement. Of course, there will be a point where he will need to know the other stuff (helpful in context of witnessing --just like Paul in Acts 19 had to know the Greek Gods to teach them about the unknown God). That will happen and I think the Lord will let you know when. I personally think 5.5 is too young for my children.

Also, there is a creation museum in the making-- it will be located outside of Cincinnati, OH. It is scheduled to open in either late 2006 or 2007.

crystal
Julie in MN
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Location: Minnesota

Brenda,

Unread post by Julie in MN »

Brenda,
I agree, what a wonderful technique MFW has for introducing dinos!

After your introduction in K/1, you will revisit this issue in CtoG -- as part of the Creation study. You use another of Ken Ham's books, and read thru pretty much the entire thing, a few pages at a time.

There is additional insight in Streams of Civilization -- which is the book that originally convinced *me* that evolution was based on "faith" just as much as creation!

As you say, evolution is *everywhere* -- from the museums to even short commercials. It is so wonderful to have the kids fully informed of all arguments and their rebuttals, before they even get to college :o)

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
Donna T.

evolution

Unread post by Donna T. »

We did ANOTHER curr. last year and I could never figure out the redeeming quality of Usborne's Children's Encyclopedia or why it merited a place in the curriculum. It's bad because that K year starts out with that book and it just gives you a bad taste from the beginning. My son was just like yours! We are convinced that his spiritual gift is discernment and he would get pretty upset at that book. I ended up dropping it all together after I saw the witches.

We are all for teaching our children all sides of an issue but my goodness, he was only five! And, we found that you can not avoid evolution all together. We are a very science oriented family and love to watch science videos and go to museums. Even the aquarium has signs about evolution. I in half seriousness have often said that I don't want my boys to be early readers because then they have so much more garbage to have to sort out! I kind of like being able to censor some things!

So for us, we discuss it when it comes up . We love the science videos by Moody Science. Also, the Incrediable Creatures that Defy Evolution series. My son has always understood that we don't believe that, that the Bible teaches something totally different and he really despises evolution. He even prays for some of the men on Animal Planet. We do let him watch some of the shows on that channel but we discuss things as they come up.

I'm really glad we are now doing MFW because it's really helping to lay a strong biblical foundation so we can go more in depth about false teachings, of all kinds, when he is older. But, hopefully it won't even be necessary then. I think he knows all he needs to know about it. We believe it's a lie and it's sad that some people don't know any different. I don't know what else he really needs to know about it.
tiffany
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Unread post by tiffany »

My eight year old son has always had a strong interest in science and was exposed to evolution at an early age. We have explained to him the difference between creation and evolution all throughout his exploration of this subject.

Dinosaurs by Design has been a favorite at our house with all the boys in the family, including the 2 year old. We also like the Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution video series. We purchased ours through Vision Forum.

We also run into young earth vs. old earth theories on a regular basis. So we just teach what we believe when those ocassions arise.

Because of how we have approached this subject with him, I feel he has a pretty strong grasp of evolution vs. creation for his age. Of course, we have also explained why people are looking for a theory that excludes a Creator.

I do try to avoid owning books that are heavy on evolution, but as the Hazells say in their science section, it is impossible to avoid completely. I think it has been beneficial for my son to understand evolution from a Christian perspective. My children find it completely uncompelling as a theory and are somewhat amazed that people believe it.

I am glad you brought this up, since I am having an Usborne show in Oct. I will need to look over my science selections more carefully.
Tiffany
Wife to Tim ('88)
Mother to Sophie 16, Jonathan 14, Joey 12, Noah 10, Matthew 8, Eli 4
Have completed MFWK, MFW 1st grade, ECC, CTG, RTR, Exp.-1850,1850-Mod., HS Ancients, HS World
Fall of '11 ECC,HS Ancients, HS U.S. History to 1877
Lucy
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Unread post by Lucy »

Hi Omma and others too,

I have been watching this thread but have not had time to respond yet. I am going to respond to the original question dealing with introducing evolution to a child. MFW has very strong views on this and as many of you have noted you will not find any mention of this in the curriculum in K or first.

From year 4 manual:
  • "MFW is committed to provide the best, the most interesting, and the most truthful and God-centered books we can find.... The bible is the only perfect resource... We believe that God created the world--and that evolution is a theory not substantiated by facts."
MFW so desires to give first a foundation for a child in who God is and how He has made everything. This is clearly seen in both the first 2 years. Adventures continues this focus on nature along with some additional wonderful science that unifies with the names of Jesus. Early Usborne books are used in both the 1st and Adventures program with no mention of evolution. Once you reach ECC there are 2 books used that will have very minimal mention of evolution and it is noted in the teacher's manual when you reach those pages but the books are not permeated with the thought. You will notice after ECC that only one other Usborne book is used and for the very reasons that have already been mentioned. The one used in RTR (year3) is very elementary which is why there is not any mention of it ( not that I remember anyway-- if there was it was again minimal). We are currently using year 4 and this is the first year that evolution is being introduced as a thought in science to be discussed and understood. The book that is being used to study the animal Kingdom is a christian text called The Animal Kingdom. It is simple yet very clear and thorough so far on showing the fallacies behind evolution. The beautiful full color animal book we are using for pictures and information does have things presented in an evolution perspective but again it is not so much that we can not skip it or use it to discuss the thoughts in the book. The teacher manual notes when there is a mention of it so you have the option to not do or to discuss. For those with 2nd and 3rd graders , if you do not think they are ready for that much information or discussion about evolution then you can easily do that separately with an older child.

Also from Year 4 T.M.:
  • "Whenever possible we select books written by Christians and free from evolutionary view. Sometimes that is not possible......We do not agree with the evolutionary content in The World of Animals--and EVERY similar book that we have examined .....Please pray that God would inspire and enable a Christian publisher to produce a top-quality, thorough volume on animals written from a godly perspective so that there would be alternatives....."
Lastly on a more personal note we have simply found that you can not go anywhere or watch anything(even commercials) that does not show the idea of evolution to be a fact. So, early on we did not really discuss what evolution is but that it was not true because of what the bible tells us. We always have tried to focus on teaching them what God has done. You will know when your kids can talk about this on a higher level of thinking. We want our kids to be able to think through why even from a scientific point of view that evolution is just bad science. As our text this year has said " wishful thinking" not scientific process.

My daughter who is in 7th grade is doing the Apologia General Science and we are very happy with the thinking that has gone into explaining what science is and is not and how many things that used to be thought right in science upon further study have been found wrong.

I know this has been long but I hope that it will help to give you not only the heart of MFW and science but to give you confidence as you use this curriculum.

May the Lord give each of us wisdom and grace as we teach our kids.

In Him,
Lucy
wife to Lee and mom to Twila 18 (girl) and Noel 16(boy). Happy MFW user since 2002.
Tina
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Unread post by Tina »

Thank you so much for what you have summarized regarding MFW and a solid biblical view. As I have also been reading this thread throughout the week, my thoughts kept returning to one of the main reasons my husband and I have chosen to homeschool. Our children are 9, 7 and 1, and the two older (more specifically the 9 yo) has not had a full introduction to an evolutionary theory, however, when it does cross some of our books and other things (as you mentioned, the "world" is saturated with this theory, from cartoons, to commercials, to movies, etc) it is so wonderful to see the child-like faith of theirs. When I discusss these ideas with them, they think it is silliness. The faith of a child is so strong, and I truly believe the Father works in them the truth, that anything else, even at the tender age of 9, is foolishness. Amen, and thank you, Lord for instilling in our children the Truth. This is number one reason why we chose MFW. Thank you, Hazell's for producing a curriculum with a biblical view. Thanks again Lucy for taking the time to post.
Tina, homeschooling mother of Laura (1996), Jacob (1998) and Tucker (2003) In MO
"One of the greatest blessings of heaven is the appreciation of heaven on earth. He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."--JIM ELLIOT
Julie in MN
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Location: Minnesota

Any dinosaur children's books/NOT taking a stand about young

Unread post by Julie in MN »

Can anyone think of any Christian children's books on dinosaurs that are not from the young earth perspective? Thanks.
My oldest son was really into dinos and we weren't young earth at that time. My experience was that the library was full of hundreds of fun books on dinos and all of them were old earth. Have you checked out your local library yet?
Julie
Hi Julie,
I have checked out our local library, but it seems that along with old earth usually comes Big Bang. I guess I can just skip over some of those parts, but I was hoping for a Christian perspective on dinosaurs that doesn't include the young earth theory?

You say you WERE not a young earth believer at the time. Did that change?
Posted by Julie in MN » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:28 am
I see, that makes sense. I really am not sure about books with a Christian/no big bang perspective. And it's been a while since I've read those types of books -- my only dino-loving child is now 25 (and figuring out how to dig thru rock to get at natural gas... hmmmm... maybe his dino hobby affected his career choice!).

And yes, I'm a convert to young earth. It started when reading Streams of Civilization the first year I homeschooled my older dd, 8 or 9 years ago. The first chapter in Streams isn't really used in MFW, but we were reading it for her high school ancients & it started just making me mad that no one had at least brought up some of the errors and failures to find evidence. The whole concept of old earth is just so prevalent and unquestioned, where I live anyways. I had been educated through a college degree & hadn't read about any questionable evidence or textbook errors, including evolutionary hoaxes -- and I remember some of those things in my elementary textbooks. I had been to museums all over the country & no one mentioned how iffy it is to date a bone by dating a nearby rock, and then how totally theoretical the dating methods of that rock are, anyways. Documentaries had never defined the evolving of our planet as a "theory," or told how very recently the science geniuses of the world had explained fossilized fish on mountaintops by citing the worldwide flood. No matter which side was correct, I was just perturbed that these topics of discussion had never been acknowledged whatsoever. I was practically stamping my foot! Science is, after all, by definition theoretical, relying completely on the generation of ideas, and only built on reproducible evidence.

So gradually, here I am, thinking young earth makes more sense to me. I've visited museums with new eyes as to how a worldwide flood can create layers and suddenly fossilize plants that otherwise would have decayed away. The more we read, the more it all fits together. The young earth model just makes sense to me and my dh now.

I also feel a peace in humbling myself to God's exact words about 7 days, rather than man's feeble attempt at feeling knowledgeable about time. However, I don't honestly feel concerned either way, since humans have proven their failure to understand the Bible in the past :~ So of course I'll allow God to have the final say 8[]

Woops, I didn't mean to stand up and give my testimony ;) I hope no offense is taken. Most everyone I know in Minnesota would NOT agree with me... so I'll sit down now...
Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
cbollin

Re: Dinosaur children's books

Unread post by cbollin »

well spoken Julie. Thank you for sharing that part of your life's journey and walk. now I feel braver .....

Similar story with Julie's in that for a long time, I had never heard the "young earth" days means days evidence. So I didn't know what it was about or if it even could be true.

I didn't start to even hear about "young earth" until around my junior year in college. In my freshman year was when I began to be a Christ follower. Duane Gish (well known at that time young earth speaker from Institute Creation Research) spoke at my very secular university. I was part of the Christian fellowship group that sponsored his talk. I had no idea what I believed - I was just excited that our group was sponsoring an academic debate. I had never heard of the young earth stuff. Dr. Gish's scholarly presentation of the evidence just made sense and the professors from the Biology and Geology departments didn't really seem to be able to say much about what they thought with it all. Pretty much like when I was "demanding" evidence of the resurrection of Jesus when I was first studying the Bible before deciding to be a Christian -- God just opened my heart and eyes to trust Him at his Word after I heard the evidence.

So, even though I sent you a link off list of books that might suit your search, I'd encourage you to do like Julie and I have discovered and learn about it. If you find as you read a book in the MFW packages that you do not agree with everything, please use your own discretion how you share the information with your children. Even among creation scientists, there is room for differences of opinion on this topic (age of earth, etc). Because we are one body with one Lord, we are called to unity. These minor differences do exist among believers and don't need to be a point of splitting into camps. So, search the scriptures and let God lead.

-crystal
claraskids
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Re: Dinosaur children's books

Unread post by claraskids »

Julie,
another MN young earth believer here! Just thought you'd like to know you weren't alone.
Truth is that I'd never heard of the Young Earth option till MFW a few years ago. Now it has just put to rest all my confusion and doubts I've always had. DH still thinks it's "hogwash"; but it does let our kids observe some great debates and show them that it is ok to question and ask for evidence.
Julie in MN wrote:Thanks, Clara :)
mother to dd11, ds7, ds5.
Adventures 07/08
ECC 08/09
Creation to Greeks 09/10
Wrapping up CTG and soon to start RTR, also doing Kindergarten
hsmom
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:58 am

Re: Dinosaur children's books

Unread post by hsmom »

thanks everyone.
i just bought one of the dinosaur books from the old earth perspective. (I couldn't find young OR old perspective books at the library...only secular evolution.) I am not old earth or young earth presently. I just wanted to get a feel for the difference. I am in my last year in seminary; and old earth/young earth was never discussed. Here's to just one more thing to research! :)
I'm not sure if you're still following this thread, and this is in reply to your last post and not to your original question. If you are trying to study and figure out where you stand, I think The Answers Book that is put out by AIG http://www.answersingenesis.org is a great place to start for a complete understanding of the young earth side. I believe it is included in one of the MFW levels, but I don't remember which one.
cbollin wrote:That would be a good book for adults to study the topic. It's in MFW 's high school, year 1 and available as individual purchase too
http://www.mfwbooks.com/highschool-ahl.html
Guest

Re: Dinosaur children's books

Unread post by Guest »

Posted Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:53 pm

We are currently deciding what we are going to teach our child about this at our house, but I ran into the same problem. Needing dinosaur books that didn't promote big bang or evolution. I think there is a perspective that people can have that says the earth is old but was created AND it doesn't mean that man came from apes, etc. Anyway, I'm researching all of this but get frustrated that it's either evolution or young earth with little in between.

I did finally find some books that just showed dinos and their names- which is all my son wanted for now anyway since he's only 4.
cbollin

Creation question...how does MFW present it?

Unread post by cbollin »

armywife03 wrote:I tend to lean more towards an old earth perspective. But, I do not believe it really matters what a persons stance is on creation because that is not what is going to get us to heaven. For now I prefer not to teach my children that the earth is "old" or only "4,000" years old. I do not mind them learning that people believe both ways...but I do not want to say one belief is right and one belief is not. I am concerned that MFW may only portray a new earth creation story. Do you think my beliefs will conflict with the MFW curriculum?

Thanks!
Summer
I haven't done the high school program, so I don't know how it is done there.

There is a note in my version of my Creation to the Greeks manual under Science, About the Books we choose, that says in small part:
  • "Even among creation scientists, there is room for differences of opinion on topics such as the age of the earth, and how many languages where spoken at the Tower of Babel. Christians are called to unity, because we are one body with one Lord. Minor doctrinal differences do exist among true believers, but our hope is that these differences do not cause division."
and the note says more than that -- it goes into why some of the books have some evolution in them, and things like that. I'm just not typing the whole note. :)

from my experiences....

In history, MFW doesn't put a date on the timeline piece called "In the Beginning" in their 1st or Creation to the Greeks programs. (at least not in the manuals I have).
Even in the book Streams of Civilization, you don't really get into the parts from that book about this topic. So, you'll have to put a date on it, or just say "in the beginning".

In science, I have noticed when evolution is mentioned in the Usborne books, there is a heads up in the manual for some of that.

In the Astronomy and Botany books (used in RTR and then EX1850), there are small sections called "creation confirmation". In some of those small sections, you'll find brief, elementary age explanations of some things in the creation topics. In some of those sections, although "young earth" is mentioned first, the author does give some brief explanation that "some people believe" differently and explains some of the reason it might seem that way.

In the jr. high science, the Apologia General book tries to talk about both sides of the issue. It's clear (and the author admits it) where he stands, but that he is trying to show both sides so that the student will know about it.

hope some of that limited info helps a bit.
-crystal
TriciaMR
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Re: Creation question...how does MFW present it?

Unread post by TriciaMR »

In Creation to the Greeks, the Dinosaurs of Eden book generally promotes a young-earth point of view (6,000-10,000 years old), but explains how they have come to that conclusion. But, you would certainly be able to say, this is just one persons point of view, and this is their reasoning. Other people believe the earth is older, and this is their reasoning. Or, you could leave out the Dinosaurs of Eden book altogether, and not even discuss it.

I agree with Crystal, Streams of Civilization doesn't really address age of the earth, and there is no real date on the timeline - just "In the Beginning." Then you put things on in the order they happened, until you know dates. And those are approximate even through Egyptian times. Streams of Civilization talks about why some people date certain events one way or the other and why some are "unknown."

-Trish
Trish - Wife to Phil, Mom to Toni(18), Charlie(14), and Trent(14)
2014-2015 - AHL, CTG
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2016-2017 - EXP1850, US1877
2017-2018 - DE, 1850MOD
2018-2019 - College, AHL
My blog
my3boys
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Re: Creation question...how does MFW present it?

Unread post by my3boys »

I am not a 'young-earther' and we are successfully using MFW thus far. There wasn't really anything in ECC to deal with last year. K and First have a little bit of content that I grazed over, but nothing that affected the programs as a whole. This year we are doing CtG. I didn't use the dinosaur books. For the timeline and teachings on origins (this takes up a week or so) I taught first what was in the MFW curriculum as this is what some christians believe and then we read through some usborne books to get the old-earth timeline. Once you get past the first few weeks this topic isn't really addressed anymore. I am using SL science instead of what's scheduled in CtG, but looking ahead I don't think I will need to replace science every year. When my boys are older I will use something else besides Apologia (not sure what as of yet). The way MFW is set up makes it very easy to tweak.
Alison
Mom to 3 busy boys ages 11, 8, and 6
finished K, First, ECC, and CtG - currently using RtR
kellybell
Posts: 473
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Re: Creation question...how does MFW present it?

Unread post by kellybell »

Okay, I'm a young earther. There, the cards are on the table.

Anyway, I think you'll do fine with MFW. Being in the homeschool community, your children will encounter a lot of young-earthers and perhaps you should have an ongoing discussion of "some Christians believe that the earth is about 10,000 years old based on how they interpret Genesis, but [others] believe the earth is much older because ..." and give your reasons. It would be good for your children (when the "time is right") to know that Christians don't all agree on one viewpoint or the other. It shouldn't be a divisive issue but it's good for kids to know both sides of the coin and also to understand why you believe what you believe.

Similarly, evolution is "out there" and your kid WILL encounter it so you might as well explain it to your children. We don't want our children to grow up thinking there is just ONE belief system out there. Discuss the ramifications of believing this or that... and why you believe what you believe.

Exposing your kids to different ideas will allow you to strengthen your beliefs. And they will grow to "own" their faith because they can see the reasons behind it. And, they will also understand the reasons behind others' faith (or lack thereof) and will be able to have intelligent conversations with folks that have different worldviews. Those are the lights in our dark world.
Kelly, wife to Jim since 1988, mom to Jamie (a girl, 1994), Mary (1996), Brian (1998) and Stephanie (2001).
armywife03
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:41 pm

Re: Creation question...how does MFW present it?

Unread post by armywife03 »

I do want to expose my children to different beliefs so that they are well rounded and not ignorant. I also want to be able to present both sides of the story to my children so as they get older they (with the help of the holy spirit) can come to the best conclusion for themselves. That is exactly why I asked this question. I wanted to make sure that MFW didn't just portray their belief in creation as the only right way to believe and everyone else is wrong.

Thanks, your replies were very helpful.

-Summer
cbollin

Considering MFW CTG for next year and have ?'s

Unread post by cbollin »

Is MFW strictly young earth? or does it leave room for teaching a different point of view?
I like how it is stated in my CTG manual:
  • "if you find as you read this book (referring to a young earth book) that you do not agree with everything, then please use your own discretion how you share the information with your children. Even among creation scientists, there is room for differences of opinion on topics such as the age of the earth and how many languages were spoken at the Tower of Babel. Minor doctrinal differences do exist among true believers, but our hope is that these differences do not cause division"
Many of science books in MFW do have a young earth approach. Some of them try to present differences in young earth/old earth creation points of view. most of them are focused on God as creator.

not sure that answers it.
mfwstudent

Re: Considering MFW CTG for next year and have ?'s

Unread post by mfwstudent »

Is MFW strictly young earth? or does it leave room for teaching a different point of view?
I’ll leave the description about the elementary materials to my mom or other parents on the board. But I wanted to share about the jr. high science on this kind of question since I’m using that program now.

It’s clear that Dr. Wile (Apologia jr. high author) holds fast to young earth. But in his General Science book I learned a lot about “uniformitarianism”, which is old earth stuff basically, as well as “catastrophism” which is basically young earth stuff. All scientists are bias, and Dr. Wile is bias toward young earth, and he says that in the book, but I thought he was doing a nice job to present the information of the other point of view in a respectful way.

And I remember in a test last year we were asked to name “problems” with each view.

And in an “on your own” in General, module 7, the question is to consider the explanation of uniformitarianism and catastrophism regarding why fossils in different strata are so different. Which one appeals to you more and why? Then the answer is “Think deeply so you can write an answer”, but he doesn’t say it is “wrong” to believe one over the other.
mamacastle2
Posts: 54
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Re: Considering MFW CTG for next year and have ?'s

Unread post by mamacastle2 »

I appreciate everyone's input and it has been very helpful. I am just going to come out and ask. If we are old earth, will that make it hard to use MFW? This is my only major concern. I love the look of the history and I have heard good things about Apologia science. I am just wondering if you aren't young earth, does that hinder using MFW?
Thanks in advance.
In my opinion, being old earth will not make it hard to use MFW. Some of the resources we've used in MFW have not been new earth. For example, the Usborne science books are not creationist. So when we get to a part where we don't agree, I improvise. Millions and millions of years becomes "a long time ago." I skip words like evolved and say "God created them..."

Apologia Astronomy writer Jeannie Fulbright is definitely new earth, and the references and proofs are littered throughout her book. When faced with something like that, you can ignore, omit, improvise, or state something like "the author believes such and such but our family doesn't necessarily believe that. We believe this and this."

I think Marie summed it up beautifully with this quote - "Minor doctrinal differences do exist among true believers, but our hope is that these differences do not cause division."

[FYI - I don't consider myself new earth or old earth. I think both have very valid points, though I probably lean towards new earth scientifically. I think the major issue is that God created it all. We have had absolutely no issues using MFW and love all the various books they've chosen.]
Jeanne
Wife to Brody
Mother to DD 10, DS 7, DD 5, DS 3, DD 1
MFW User Since 2007: MFW 1st, Adv., ECC, CTG
2011-2012 - RTR & MFWK
cbollin

Re: Considering MFW CTG for next year and have ?'s

Unread post by cbollin »

mamacastle2 wrote:For example, the Usborne science books are not creationist.
side note.... quoting David Hazell:
buried in this thread:
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 970#p57970
david wrote:We continually seek out the best books on the market for our customers and work with publishers to improve books. One great change for this year is that MFW has been able to work with 3 large publishers to remove almost all references to evolution from their publications.
from what I could tell in the 2010 catalog that included one of those usborne books. All of those years in MFW teacher manuals in the intro section about science books -- there were prayer requests for all to pray for that to happen. God is faithful. an out loud thank you to Marie and David for letting God use you in that and to allow us the opportunity to support it in prayer.

-crystal
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Considering MFW CTG for next year and have ?'s

Unread post by Julie in MN »

I appreciate everyone's input and it has been very helpful. I am just going to come out and ask. If we are old earth, will that make it hard to use MFW? This is my only major concern. I love the look of the history and I have heard good things about Apologia science. I am just wondering if you aren't young earth, does that hinder using MFW?
Thanks in advance.
To me, the issue comes up so infrequently that I wouldn't hesitate to reap the benefits of MFW just over this one difference. Your family will be blessed by reading the Bible together and learning so much about the world right in your own home, with a wide variety of resources, and room for deep discussion about your own family's important ways of looking at things.
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
cbollin

RtR issues

Unread post by cbollin »

And the science. I'm putting out some feelers to see if there is anyone in the same place as me, but please, I'm not looking to offend anyone or start a debate. We are christians, but not young-earth. I have found the history fairly easy to work around on this point, but the science I'm not so sure. We did not use the CtG science. I am going to supplement with SL science for my oldest science lover, but I think I will try the RtR science with all of them. Again, science curriculum is expensive!
dont' worry on the science thing... you're just looking to see if what MFW uses fits your needs and goals and preferences. no worries. Good questions.

I don't think it will be an issue in the first semester - when it is body systems. God created. It doesn't even deal with YE/OE. there's a semester project on building a model body from paper.
You might like to look at Lainie's blog posts from this year in RTR to see some of the science in that body unit
http://www.mishmashmaggie.com/2008/11/o ... -week.html
she also includes science from her jr. high student.

Astronomy -- uses Jeannie Fulbright book. for the vast majority of the book, it is just "God created". Very little is devoted to age of earth or age of universe. There will be some sections called "Creation Confirmation" that you will either leave out, or something. But those are labeled as Creation Confirmation and will make it easy to adjust, in my opinion.
Chapter 2, p. 20, 3 paragraphs, read it for yourself and that will let you know if you should omit the 3 paragraphs or not.
Chapter 8, p. 93. Don't leave that Creation Confirmation out if you are not young earth -- it talks about comets from both old and young solar system pov.
so those are the 2 "creation confirmation" sections that I know of in Astronomy. There might be some random little things in some other parts, but for the most part -- it doesn't deal with age issues. even in the Earth chapter, it is more about God created Earth - perfect rotation, perfect temperature. etc. really doesn't "go there" on age issue.

so, if that style of book is good for learning styles in your family, I don't think it will be too hard to adjust on that issue.
Guest

Re: RtR issues

Unread post by Guest »

And the science. I'm putting out some feelers to see if there is anyone in the same place as me, but please, I'm not looking to offend anyone or start a debate. We are christians, but not young-earth. I have found the history fairly easy to work around on this point, but the science I'm not so sure. We did not use the CtG science. I am going to supplement with SL science for my oldest science lover, but I think I will try the RtR science with all of them. Again, science curriculum is expensive!
We are also an old earth family and I totally understand where you are coming from on that. I will say the Jeannie Fulbright (Apologia) books are good at being sensitive in that area. I haven't done the upper level MFW cycles, but I do have experience with Apologia science, and it's a good science curriculum. We have tweaked a few things here and there with MFW science, but overall I found it easy and user friendly, which is what I needed.
cbollin

Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by cbollin »

gratitude wrote:I have seen it mentioned on various posts that the David & Marie Hazel were able to obtain books published by publishers especially for MFW without evolution in them.

Which books did they do this with? What changes were made?
I know of Living World Encyclopedia in ECC. I don't have a list of each change, but basically all of the things that were heads up notes in the ECC manual to scratch or be ware of ... that kind of stuff.

I heard something was done with Illustrated World Atlas?

and you can read about the changes on the high school Ancient world:

My Father's World has arranged a special printing of this out-of-print book for use in our high school program and is now making this book available to all. This exclusive My Father's World version is based on the 3rd (green) edition, but begins with "The First Civilizations" (B.C.), omitting 22 pages of prehistoric man and animals found in other editions. This beautiful, full-color, 378-page hardcover book would be a great addition to any family library, and is especially recommended for junior high, high school, and parent reference. Included in the World History and Literature package.
Was Usborne Ancient World in CTG one of them? Did they take out the 10,000+ years at the beginning of the book and social evolution of evolving from Cave Men to Farmers to Civilization (I looked at it on Amazon)?

Is anyone else tired of social evolution in textbooks besides me? Or is it our previous use of SL that makes me feel this way?
To my knowledge that hasn't happened yet with that book. Instead. MFW just doesn't schedule those pages. or gives heads up notes in the manual. I'd have to look it up and defer to someone else to just verify some pages aren't used.

...this is weird. I just picked up my copy of Ancient World that is used in CTG and there's isn't a page like that in my book? I realize my copy is from 2004 so maybe something is new. But I wonder if you are looking at a different book?

The ctg book I have starts with first farmers and does get it mixed up that it was thousands of years before anyone farmed. And the dates are 10,000 bc instead of not that far back. also in CTG on those first pages in Ancient World, Marie provides a substitute sentence to use for those dates. Then the other date for early civ is an estimated date of about 5000 years ago... so.. hmm... I'm not seeing that in my edition. The sentence that someone was tempting to throw a few punches at us MFW users from Ancient World was page 72 with the date of 15,000 years ago, but I simply went back to what we had read in Streams to get a better date and didn't sweat it. really, that's about the only thing I've run into with this book. I think overall you'll be very happy with the book.

to the other question there... I've used MFW for so long that I learned to appreciate Marie's heads up notes to skip a paragraph, or sentence and appreciate when those pages aren't scheduled and appreciate that she selects whenever possible to use books that are free of that content. And then, it gets balanced in CTG with Streams of Civilization so you get both sides, if you kwim? :)

oh.. have you seen this thread? It explains the why behind some of it.
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 385#p56384
Does anyone know what facts these books draw on for social evolution besides Darwin? Are they based on any archeological digs? What method of dating?
I have bolded my most important questions, the rest you may or may not wish to answer.
I don't know. too clueless to answer that one.
Thank you MFW users for your patience and kindness with my many questions as I learn more and more about home schooling. HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!! May God Bless your 4 day weekend Abundantly! :-)
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well! You're fine. Just don't tell me on yahoo groups that I'm a "bad christian" for filtering a sentence with wrong dates. You'll find I'm not so patient. LOL LOL LOL evil laughterOLOLOLOL bahhaaaaaaaa

I think you'll be happier than you were with the previous program you used based on what you've shared. blessings and you have great questions. don't worry about it ;)
-crystal
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by gratitude »

Thank you Crystal!!!

Is the Book for HS they had re-printed the Exploring World History or the Usborne Encyclopedia?

I can see how the Streams of Civilization would help with showing a different resource with different dates. Skipping some of it, as you mentioned, is another way.

I have spent too much time having to point out where the Usborne books say 'possible' that it points out a theory rather than fact. The following information is what they 'think' is true, but don't have enough scientific evidence to back it up.

I knew we were in trouble when my ds7 announced a few days ago that scientists are theorists and that science doesn't have anything to do with God. He has two Christian parents who met working as biologists! Oh dear! :~ He wants science that honors God & the Bible rather than theories. On one hand it is good my faith is obviously having an impact. I know just enough about evolution and arguments against it, from my training in Biology, to be constantly pointing out areas I disagree with in books. I guess I am starting to long for teaching without having to refute what I am teaching. We do have some Ken Ham books, but obviously the Usborne has had an impact. There is a time for that, but as he forms his world view between now and age 12 I would like to focus more on the positive aspects of what he is learning with his faith (same with the younger children some day). Then I have been researching History, and though hmm... I don't even know enough to refute it. Perhaps I will have to research why people believe in 'old earth' as far as History goes. I know why on the science end. I also know what science facts make me disagree.

Oh I am rambling a bit here. Thinking out-loud. I guess I thought home schooling would get us away from evolution & social evolution until our kids were older. Then I expected to have to explain all of this by age 10 or so. I realize if I had started with MFW, instead of SL, I wouldn't have had all of these discussions already. I think my kids and I need a break from it, and we shall take one! :-)

HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Thank YOU!!
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