Worldview - MFW approach to creation/evolution? What age?

cbollin

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by cbollin »

gratitude wrote:Thank you Crystal!!!

Is the Book for HS they had re-printed the Exploring World History or the Usborne Encyclopedia?
Neither. Exploring World History is Notgrass (very Christian, young earth creation)

It is a DK book, uhm.. title... DK History of the World. used in WHL.

so, I turn to the real expert in my house on the high school program and ask about the Usborne book in AHL:
hey oldest..... "got any comments regarding the encyclopedia book in AHL on the subject of how it deals with evolution/creation in the context of all of the rest of the stuff especially with all the Apologia you've done and the Ken ham book, New Answers Book?"

oldest: "Mrs. Hazell has several notes including when we first use that book that it uses "millions". She tells us to compare this to the true record. Actually, it doesn't do all that much millions stuff really. Can I go back to playing my computer game? thanks. I want to waste my life now. "

LOL real conversation love it! hee heeee heeee
I knew we were in trouble when my ds7 announced a few days ago that scientists are theorists and that science doesn't have anything to do with God. He has two Christian parents who met working as biologists! Oh dear! :~ He wants science that honors God & the Bible rather than theories. On one hand it is good my faith is obviously having an impact.
I think a combo of hearing MFW K now, and then next year with the science in Adventures..... your son will get a new perspective. in ADV, science is used to help understand the Names of Jesus. So, science really begins to have that time to see that HE created it and it points to HIM.

(((hugs))))

-crystal
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by gratitude »

cbollin wrote:so, I turn to the real expert in my house on the high school program and ask about the Usborne book in AHL:
hey oldest..... "got any comments regarding the encyclopedia book in AHL on the subject of how it deals with evolution/creation in the context of all of the rest of the stuff especially with all the Apologia you've done and the Ken ham book, New Answers Book?"

oldest: "Mrs. Hazell has several notes including when we first use that book that it uses "millions". She tells us to compare this to the true record. Actually, it doesn't do all that much millions stuff really. Can I go back to playing my computer game? thanks. I want to waste my life now. "

LOL real conversation love it! hee heeee heeee
8[] 8[] 8[] It made me smile and laugh! I always LOVED teaching teenagers.


Crystal I found the answer to my question! :-)

Chapters 4 & 5 of Ken Ham's book, "The New Answers Book 2". The 2nd book to the one used by MFW for HS.

I guess in reading his answers, which I agree with, I have to ask, "Why use Usborne books that teach thousands or millions of years?" This is a big question many home schoolers who use curriculum will face, since many of them seem to use Usborne books. After using SL I think my answer would be that the closer we draw to the Lord and His Word the more we recognize that which is false around us. The more we know the Truth, the more we see that which is not; in my opinion. I haven't enjoyed teaching that which I disagree with and then having to refute it. :~ My kids are very young though, and I know it is the very reason for some of my opinions that MANY would strongly disagree with. I don't know what I will think in 5 years on this very issue.

I Love many things about MFW. Usborne books are a small piece of the puzzle. Time for more prayer! :-)

Blessings!
cbollin

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by cbollin »

gratitude wrote:I Love many things about MFW. Usborne books are a small piece of the puzzle. Time for more prayer! :-)
exactly. bingo.

and it really isn't usborne books that are the issue here. It's the tiny tiny amount of edits needed. The books that MFW uses don't need tons of edits. The Living World one needed the most edits, and hey, look at how God provided. MFW uses age appropriate books so that we have more time to build the right foundation before they know other stuff.

MFW doesn't use Usborne books to teach "millions of years" because MFW doesn't teach millions of years. Other programs may or may not do that but I dont' know. Parents have the option to gently bring it up from the book, but it is not mandatory. MFW assumes we have enough discernment to teach our children. I mean, think about all of the zoo visits people do......

The few Usborne books that MFW uses in 1st grade don't have any evolution in them at all. So, don't be frightened on those just because Usborne published them. MFW worked hard to get Living World Encyclopedia changed, and Ancient World that is used in CTG has the tiniest tiniest tiniest wrong group of thousands and MFW gives you a sentence that just says "instead of that, say After The Flood". In other words, with all of the quality stuff in Usborne, there isn't a need to toss all of it out. I mentioned this on another group recently: MFW doesn't use the Usborne pre history book. ok? It might mean we have to buy 3 books individually instead of a 4 book compilation, but hey..... they help us stand on principle even when we don't know it.

don't be frightened from using a book by any publisher. Judge the book how it is used in context of MFW. Books aren't used in isolation in mfw. That applies to Usborne, SOTW, that gary demar book (he's over the top for my preferences).... know what I'm saying? But with the dates in CTG: we start with Creation. We build a timeline and build on book of Genesis and do it in order. We learn that farming has always been around. Then, when Sumer and Ur and all of that show up in chronological history, we do that too and MFW uses more than one book and tells us up front which one says what.

You ask how secular publishers do this in history books? It's out of ignorance and not knowing the Truth. Much like things in middle ages when they taught wrong info. But again, look at how God provided and used MFW to help a secular publisher remove errors. amen? think how many people who don't use MFW are being impacted by this change. amen?

I guess I sorta appreciate Mr. Ham's "extreme red alert warning status" on some topics, but I'm more thankful that Marie Hazell knew these things too and took it into account when selecting books and the timing of using those books. Her approach seems to fit a more balance, life long approach so that we keep our children innocent but not ignorant.

anyway... I'm sounding like I'm on a soap box. I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything. I'm just avoiding the kitchen..... can't avoid it any longer. those dishes have to get in the little box that automatically clean them for me. LOL LOL LOL
gratitude wrote: I haven't enjoyed teaching that which I disagree with and then having to refute it. :~ My kids are very young though, and I know it is the very reason for some of my opinions that MANY would strongly disagree with. I don't know what I will think in 5 years on this very issue.
I hear ya. I think you and I think a lot alike. That's why I like teaching from the books. I know some programs and ideas out there try to say my kiddo should be more independent earlier and earlier, but..... no. they can take a hike. LOL

Using MFW has helped me to teach what I agree with. And when tiny things are in some books (and I'm not talking Usborne in this case), it's been easy to discuss instead of refute. but what's really cool is looking back 7.5 years ago when God put MFW in my path.... I know now (from hearing other experiences) why He pulled me away from using a different curriculum when my oldest was heading into 2nd grade.

-crystal
RachelT
Posts: 350
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by RachelT »

Hi "gratitude! I wanted to share my perspective. This is our 5th year using MFW and we have been working through CtG since August, so we are now ready to start Week 14. I think we have the same edition that Crystal was talking about and we use Streams of Civilization and Victor's Journey Through the Bible too. However, I consider the Bible our main history "textbook". To begin the year of CtG, we read Dinosaurs of Eden (a Ken Ham book) for a couple of weeks and the first pages assigned in Ancient World are pages 6-8, talking about Sumer. So, Marie Hazell didn't even assign pages 4-5 (with the reference to "10,000 BC") for reading, but instead we read about the Fertile Crescent in Streams of Civilization. We made a timeline with the student pack so it is based on our "young earth" belief and the closest dates to what we can find from the Bible.

Usually if we are looking at any book that talks about "millions" or "10,000's" of years or more, I just automatically say, "many years". My children are only 7 & 9, but they understand that other schools or teachers may say things that we don't agree with about creation vs. evolution, but they believe that what the Bible says is true. In fact, my son was just telling me this morning that if he went to another kind of school, that he would tell them the right answers even if it meant that he would get an F! We have used Ancient World for gaining information about the people, their homes, job, crafts, and what life was like. I really like the illustrations. I just don't feel like it is our main history book, but an added piece of information. We aren't using it for dates.

I really trust Mari'es judgement and she always warns us ahead of time about anything that she does include in our lesson plans that has any questionable information, but usually she is so good at weeding those things out so it isn't necessary. Sometimes she even writes something in the TM for us to read about things like that. MFW has taught me how to teach my children about history! I hope something here helps! :-)
Rachel, wife to Doug ~ 1995, mom to J (17) and B (15)
MFW K (twice), 1st (twice), Adv., ECC, & CtG 2006-2010,
Classical Conversations 2010-2016,
ECC/AHL 2016-17, eclectic 2017-18, WHL & US1 2018-19

http://rachelsreflections-rachelt.blogspot.com/
jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by jasntas »

Just wanted to add a story similar to RachelT's.

My ds went to ps for 1st and 2nd and got a little evolutionary teaching in addition to our Bible teaching at home so he was exposed maybe a bit earlier than I would have liked him to be. He is well aware of the stance many take on evolution and millions of years. He has also already caught on to my using many years when it says millions of years. He will ask, does it really say that mom or is this a Christian book?

Now to my story. Last Friday we went on a field trip to a space center where they had this awesome 3D globe thing showing tsunamis and earthquakes and such. Also each planet, etc. It was really cool. The opening, though, was about a 10 minute lecture showing how the earth might have looked millions of years ago and was presented as fact. The group is a Christian group and you could see all the heads turning to look at each mom when the lecture began.

My ds asked many questions when we left. Most along the lines of why much of the world believes in evolution. I basically told him that the Bible is fact and everything else should be, but is no longer based on that fact. And that as he gets older he will have to make his own decision as to whether he will continue to believe it or not. (I'm not explaining it exactly how it went but it was a great conversation.)

Then, a couple of nights ago during our Bible and prayer time before bed my ds asked my dh if he (my ds) could pray for the man at the museum. He asked God to reveal Himself to the man and that the man would accept Christ. It was an awesome moment. He has continued to pray for this man every night since.

I don't know exactly how this ties in with this thread but I just wanted to share how a little evolutionary teaching and then the use of MFW and our own beliefs and teaching has been life changing for my son and his thinking.

Well, I'd better go make my famous stuffing and get over to my mom's for dinner. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!! :-)
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Books Published Especially for MFW?

Unread post by gratitude »

cbollin wrote: Her approach seems to fit a more balance, life long approach so that we keep our children innocent but not ignorant.
I like this statement a lot. Ultimately that is one of our many goals with our children. Innocent enough to learn to Love the Lord, and not ignorant so that one day they can go out in the world and not be swayed by it.
RachelT wrote: I hope something here helps! :-)
Oh, it did! What you wrote helped a lot! :-)
jasntas wrote:Just wanted to add a story similar to RachelT's.
I don't know exactly how this ties in with this thread but I just wanted to share how a little evolutionary teaching and then the use of MFW and our own beliefs and teaching has been life changing for my son and his thinking.
Oh, your story was WONDERFUL! Thank you for sharing, and I do think it tied into this thread.

I hope everyone had a very wonderful Thanksgiving yesterday. We Did! :-) We even were able to play in the snow, it snowed all day, and that is a rare treat for us. It was cold enough to build a fire, and we were able to do our annual reading of the Thanksgiving story. We are thankful to God for many many things.
jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Knowing something about evolution?

Unread post by jasntas »

shera wrote:I have a few general questions regarding MFW. Is the theory of evolution ever talked about or studied? It is prevalent in the secular world and it seems that kids should know something about it before college.
The Properties of Ecosystems book used in ECC deals some with evolution and in a way that has spurred some good conversations with my dc.

Recently we read about the Dodo (sp?) bird. We learned that, if I remember correctly without looking it up, this bird died out about 500 years ago. Not during the 'Ice Age' or 'prehistoric' times as it always seems to be portrayed.
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Knowing something about evolution?

Unread post by Julie in MN »

I really like how Apologia Physical Science (8th grade) teases apart the terms that folks often all lump together and call "evolution."

Ken Ham & Co. also address this extensively in the 9th grade program. By that point, you'll know if you want to add more at your house.

Hope that adds a little,
Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

science for 2-6th

Unread post by Julie in MN »

lisaha wrote:I do like how the science is coordinating with the places we study in ECC, but has anyone had trouble with the Usborn book's secular view? My kids have certainly had alot of questions about why that science book has many passages in it that do not coordinate with our beliefs-such as evolution. Now I have explained it and they feel bad for the scientists! LOL! I do love the riveting conversations and debates, but sometimes I wish the books just had the Christian Biblical perspective to strengthen their beliefs and then in another way bring up the secular views and why they are wrong. What are your thoughts in this? Don't get me wrong we are enjoying ECC ALOT! LOL! I've just kinda looked around to see if there are other science books that do the same thing but are not secular. Although I love the way MFW is set up in Bible for other areas and I do love how well it works for larger families! :) Plus the missions parts of it too! I have a few children that want to do mission work now! :)
Lisa,
I thought that MFW had reprinted the Living World Encyclopedia without some of the evolutionary content? You might check on that with the office, and see if you can get the newer version, if it is out. It sounds like that would meet your needs?

We used the regular Usborne version with my son in 3rd grade. We do not live in the Bible belt and therefore nothing in Usborne books is a surprise to my son, and we have always worked around it when we want to learn about some things. In fact, I purpose to boldly face the world's point of view with my children, clearly demonstrating to them that our faith is not too shaky to stand up next to anything else.

We each have to know our own children's spiritual needs, though. The Properties of Ecosystems book is a firmly Christian text. You could emphasize that one, if you like?

I do feel confident that learning over the years with MFW has been rich in opportunities to strengthen his faith. I wouldn't worry that your children will be lacking in that department. I guess you mentioned that. And science texts in future years are mostly by Christian authors (just like the main text science in ECC, Properties of Ecosystems, which is from Answers in Genesis).
lisaha wrote:Thank you Julie! I know the children will always hear secular views and I sure want them to have faith in Christ and know the historical facts and scientific facts to support the Bible so that when they run across people who will try to shake their faith, they can tell them why the Bible is right and then share the gospel! :) My mini missionaries-oh how I want to raise them with a heart for Jesus and the desire to do His work! :)
So precious, I know your efforts will bear fruit.
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by gratitude »

guest wrote:I'm sort of struggling with the thought of how to teach about things like the sun and dinosaurs,etc.
I'm still a fledgling Christian and not sure what I believe regarding a young earth/old earth.

I'm troubled by all the evolutionist "propaganda" out there... I spent some time at the library the other day and couldn't find a single book that said anything other than that the sun is billions of years old. I don't know what REALLY happened to the dinosaurs or whether they were on the ark or not...I've spent hours online researching creation and a lot of what I find seems to be technical "the YE theory is flawed and this is why." There seems to be such an overwhelming amount of information that points to old earth (at best) and evolution (I think this is easier to overlook, discount, and skip). But if the earth really is 6000 years old, why is there so little evidence, or so much rebuttal from evolutionists and even OE believers that says that YE believers overlook the 'facts' and scientific evidence ~for instance: http://www.answersincreation.org

I realize that I can tell my kids, "Well, some people believe this, and some people believe that.."
but... there is still this struggle in my own mind to want to know..
I was in a similar place regarding Young Earth when my oldest reached K. I had been leaning towards young earth, through some prompting in my heart & spirit when reading Genesis 1, for about 4 to 5 years. I was still sitting some on the fence though when he reached K 2 years ago. Home schooling, & the research my DH and I did, made us cross over to understanding the Bible as a 6 day historical account.

I will come back with some great books for you to read and decide for yourself.

A little FYI: My DH & I both majored in Environmental science in college and met as biologists. I never did buy the evolution theories, but I did sit on the old earth side of the fence for a number of years. Then I realized when I faced this issue with my own children that I was trying to fit the Bible into science, rather than taking the Bible as the truth & word of God and reading science with open eyes. It was a very meaningful and eye opening experience. More importantly though the more I let go of the old earth thinking in the last 10 years the closer I grew to God's Word.
SarahP
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by SarahP »

Ken Ham has a great picture book about dinosaurs for kids it's called (Wait for it.....) Dinosaurs for Kids.
It's beautiful, well written and from a creationist perspective.

I hope this helps,
Sarah
cbollin

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by cbollin »

Christians do vary in their beliefs on this - even within young earth beliefs there are variations. and to use MFW, you don't have to believe young earth. Those who believe that God did not create, well they will have a difficult time in using MFW for many things. But in terms of when it was created? you'll find variations among us.

If you are wanting to learn more......
I'd recommend Creation Ministries International
http://creation.com/
or maybe Answers in Genesis website if you want young earth info for yourself vs. hearing an interpretation of those sites from other sources.

Like with any new topic, start with the books written at children's info level then move into more info level. I do that when I am learning just about anything -- how to garden... I head for the children's department first. It will have easier steps, less details. Then, as I learn a bit more, get more books from rest of the library.
So, you can start with the book in the MFW K package.

Later in MFW programs, books that have young earth info and such:
apologia elementary
Jay Wile's science books in jr. high and high -
in Streams of Civilization, chapter 1, there is some information.
In high school program, AHL, The New Answers Book holds a lot of YE backing.

So, for the adult who isn't sure yet,
*I typically would avoid internet sites that debate each other on the topic. There are certainly things that some people want to believe and say "ooh, this means this", but has since been shown to prove nothing. Remember, we can't scientifically prove either way because the scientific method cannot be used. That's a hard one for some people to understand. But from the link you shared, it's dear to their hearts to be "right". And from answersingenesis, they hold it dear to be right as well.

*I'd get the New Answers Book from the AHL package. Plus the dinosaur books in MFW. Then, as your children get older, and might use some of the apologia jr. high books, you'll find Dr. Wile tries his hardest to present the sides. He admits up front what he believes, but tries (and I think does a good job) of presenting the information of old vs. young, without it coming across as you are going to be ruined if you don't believe "xyz". I like that. I'm not as sure that I think Mr. Ham does that in his materials.

*and, and this is a BIG and... get the Bluedorns logic books from MFW high school. No matter which books or site you believe, having a strong logical approach to studying it is needed. So, before you start with the old v. young.... start with logic and critical thinking skills as you go into it.

My own story? I became a Christ followers when I was 19. raised in public school. Something in me just knew that evolution made no sense. The universe is too darn orderly. Where are the transition fossils? While in college one year at a major secular university, our Christian fellowship group sponsored an academic debate on evolution v. creation. Ok, so Dr. Gish spoke over my head in many places, but the pieces fell into place. and yes, much more of the Bible made a lot more sense when I saw it through "young earth" eyes.

So, don't be nervous to be on a journey to learn more along the way with your children.
blessings to you as you rely on God to open your eyes to His truth in His word.
-crystal
kaiakai
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:41 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by kaiakai »

When I read things like this:
Creation Museum - A Preliminary Review
By Greg Neyman © Old Earth Ministries
I am not sure what is true. I was also reading Case for A Creator, then looked online and found a ton of stuff discrediting Strobel.

I was looking at reviews of the Fallacy Detective a few months ago because I had seen it at a HS convention and thought it looked good, but noticed that several reviewers mentioned that the book itself was full of fallacies. ? :D

I have limited time and energy to read (and stay on top of everything else I have to do), and I suspect I'm not too good with fallacies and deducing what's true. I'm looking forward to learning alongside my kids (one of the reasons I am homeschooling!) and I am not afraid to say that "I don't know".
~Kai
http://thecatinthetree.blogspot.com
Mom to Kiira (5) and Hana (2)
cbollin

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by cbollin »

Kai,
There may be a few typos here and there. But in general, I think someone will learn good skills from the book. So, now you've read a positive review about that book from someone who has a husband who could run you in circles on logic debates, and his brother the attorney, could do the same. We like the book.

It is more important to do that before tackling a question like "ok.. the old earth people hate ken ham, but are they telling the truth about him?" or the question of "ooh.. I believe anything ken ham says, so the other place that says bad stuff is just wrong." honestly... In many of these cases, people will die on a hill defending one side of the other. So, linking to an article and asking us to tell you if it is right...... this is not the appropriate place for it.

Go back a few steps and use some logic and critical thinking skills books first.
Realize that both of the ye and oe people have their own agendas.

take it slowly. Your oldest is only 4, right? Perhaps all that child needs right now is "God made the earth."

-crystal
Julie in MN
Posts: 2909
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:44 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by Julie in MN »

I remember sharing my journey on this topic here: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 046#p56507

If you are not too worried about answering your kids right now, and just okay with "I'm not sure" or "let's find out," then I would just learn along with them in MFW. There's a dinosaur book in K and another in CTG. There is Streams of Civilization used in CTG/RTR, and lots on the topic in AHL. There is plenty to read on these topics in Apologia science when you get to 7-9th grades.

If you want "more" but know you can't accomplish too much during these busy years, I was thinking of these:

1. The New Answers Book DVD is very short clips on some of the chapters in The New Answers Book (the book is used in AHL, 9th grade).

2. There is a Museum Guide and a Zoo Guide that directly responds to things you might typically see at those sites or on shows about museum and zoo type topics.

3. Sign up for the Answers In Genesis email loop, and you will get a free download each week. Some of those downloads will be talks on these topics that might be helpful.


I'll just say that Strobel books and DVDs are not my favorite. He speaks too generally for me. I'm sure he speaks to the hearts of some folks out there, but if he doesn't speak to you, then I'd move on to try someone else.

Julie
Julie, married 29 yrs, finding our way without Shane
(http://www.CaringBridge.org/visit/ShaneHansell)
Reid (21) college student; used MFW 3rd-12th grades (2004-2014)
Alexandra (29) mother; hs from 10th grade (2002+)
Travis (32) engineer; never hs
jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by jasntas »

As far as how to handle the books with 'millions of years ago' when reading them to my dc I just sub and say many years ago. That could mean 6,000, 60,000 or 600,000. HTH a little. :)
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.
kaiakai
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:41 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by kaiakai »

Crystal- Yes, she is only 4. This thread is more for me & figuring my own beliefs than it was about her :) Like I said, I'm just trying to figure out what to say to her as we approach subjects that I used to think I knew at least *something* about. I do want to keep an open (yet discerning) mind and encourage the same in her. I suppose I lack confidence in my own discerning abilities, and I definitely wasn't trying to start a debate by posting the links... but that's just it.. one person says one thing and another person says something else to disprove it...

Somehow I went 32 years without ever even hearing the word "fallacy" until a few months ago! I did read many positive reviews on The Fallacy Detective as well. And thank you for your recommendation! which of those two would you recommend more/ first?


Julie, Thanks!! I skimmed that thread a few weeks ago, thanks for posting it again.
~Kai
http://thecatinthetree.blogspot.com
Mom to Kiira (5) and Hana (2)
cbollin

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by cbollin »

kaiakai wrote:Yes, she is only 4. This thread is more for me & figuring my own beliefs than it was about her :)
I understood that from the get go.
However, I know that as you are figuring it out, your daughter will have some questions too, and just saying that for her the answer may be as simple as "God made it on day 1" even if you aren't sure how long ago day 1 was. and it's ok to not have those answers right away for you.

the other question you had....
I'd start with fallacy detective. (why? because it was written first? uh.. sure, why not :)

One of the benefits I've seen from my oldest having done the bluedorn books:
our chiropractor is currently selling some products. Part of the ad and marketing of those products has a lot of fear factor in advertising going on with it mixed with a little bit of truth. Now, she's not selling bad stuff. Just premium priced product without "xyz ingredient" that other less expensive products do have. My chiropractor has the ad copy for said product up on a chart and my oldest (age 15) looked at it and said "well, of course that stat will be there. But it has nothing to do with safety of the product she is selling, nor the dangerous of the other products. But it sure seems scary doesn't it? " without going into the actual details of product, that might not sound like a lot, but the "stat" used was to make people scared of the competitors product. She recognized that. She wasn't willing to pay for a premium "safer" product just because it didn't have an ingredient. She went home, researched the ingredient that is missing from the safe product and found out - wow... it's not considered an unsafe ingredient by a cancer research foundation that doesn't sell the ingredient. interesting. hmm..

Also, from my college days (I had a minor in marketing and sales), start with Fallacy Detective. You'll get a head start on marketing 101 that way. giggle.

-crystal
alisoncooks
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:44 pm

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by alisoncooks »

SarahP wrote:Ken Ham has a great picture book about dinosaurs for kids it's called (Wait for it.....) Dinosaurs for Kids.
Oh, I just added that to my cart. My girls love dinosaurs (they thought Christmas came early when we bought the dino flash card set from the dollar section at Target!) And I like Ken Hamm so I think that'll be a great book to have on hand!
jasntas wrote:As far as how to handle the books with 'millions of years ago' when reading them to my dc I just sub and say many years ago. That could mean 6,000, 60,000 or 600,000. HTH a little. :)
:-) Me too. My girls are inquisitive but young (3 and 5). They are still happy with those types of phrases/wording.
Married to DH since 2000, with 2 sweet girls (2006 & 2008).
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by gratitude »

kaiakai wrote:When I read things like this:
Creation Museum - A Preliminary Review
By Greg Neyman © Old Earth Ministries
I was also reading Case for A Creator, then looked online and found a ton of stuff discrediting Strobel.
When you are looking on-line you will find those who will discredit just about anyone in the public eye, if they are passionate enough to discredit them. Those who strongly believe in evolution are very passionate about their Darwin beliefs (I spent years debating friends in my department on these very issues). They are often intelligent and very well educated in their beliefs. They will take the time to discredit Christian authors on the computer.

The reason I didn't follow the evolution crowd was due to a lack of scientific evidence and facts. A theory without backing. Darwin himself said that if the fossils failed to back his theory, his theory was not valid. The fossils failed to back it.

Young Earth versus old Earth is a much larger discussion. Perhaps tonight. I actually came on here for PLL help.

I would encourage you though to decide, over time, and teach your children what you believe.

Blessings,
rebeccal2002
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by rebeccal2002 »

Hi,
It kind of makes your head spin, no? :)

I am from a Christian background and upbringing, but my parents believed the Gap Theory. That's to say, they thought there was a 1st creation, Lucifer rebelled, there was a big war, it messed up the earth and creation, dinosaurs died, everything died (this was the millions and millions of years ago) and thus you have the RE-creation (about 7,000 - 10,000 years ago). My parents taught me (their whole church believed this) that Gen 1-2 was about the RE-creation. Well, when I grew up, my beliefs started to differ from theirs. It wasn't until beginning home schooling that that theory was challenged. I started reading everything I could. My head felt like it would explode. Seriously, I had a bad headache the whole time I was trying to search the truth out.

Answers in Genesis was very helpful on the subject. For me, what it came down to, was, do I believe Science or the Creator? I'm not a scientist, so it was very difficult to figure out if the science was "right." But I do know that in the Bible, which I believe to be the truth, tells about Jesus turning water into wine. Now, if you just looked at that wine, you'd think it was old (wine needs to be aged, but first it needed to be a grape, a plant, a seed...) But Jesus just "made" it. And Adam and Eve...if you looked at them, they were fully grown adults. You'd think that would have had to be a baby, first. But there they were, God made them and they appeared to have a history. Couldn't God have done the same with the Sun, stars, moon, etc. So that's how I came over to the young earth point of view. But I have a lot of grace for those that disagree. It wasn't that long ago that I thought the truth was something else. I am convinced that it is the position that I want to teach my children. I have explained to them, however, about the various other points of view so that they are not surprised when they encounter people who hold a different belief.

So, that's my .02. :)
HTH a little bit,
Rebecca
HS'ing since 2006, MFW since 01/2011 :)
2015/16: ECC (2nd time around w/ 3rd, 6th and 8.5 grader), WHL (10th). Also 2nd half of K and 1st for 6 year old.

Finished K, 1st, ECC, CTG, RTR, Exp-1850, 1850-MOD, AHL

and 4 year old helping!
kaiakai
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:41 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by kaiakai »

rebeccal2002 wrote:It kind of makes your head spin, no? :)
Sure does. I am feeling quite dizzy at the moment. What you said about not being a scientist and having difficulty in figuring out if science is right is exactly how I feel as well.
~Kai
http://thecatinthetree.blogspot.com
Mom to Kiira (5) and Hana (2)
jasntas
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:10 pm

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by jasntas »

alisoncooks wrote:
jasntas wrote:As far as how to handle the books with 'millions of years ago' when reading them to my dc I just sub and say many years ago. That could mean 6,000, 60,000 or 600,000. HTH a little. :)
:-) Me too. My girls are inquisitive but young (3 and 5). They are still happy with those types of phrases/wording.
Yea, my ds has wised up to that one and will now ask, "Does it really say that, Mom or does it say millions of years." lol He now has a pretty solid understanding of the scriptures, even at 10 and believes in a literal 6 days of creation. My dh reads the Bible to both my dc most every night and we have used MFW for the last 2 years. :)

To the OP, my best advice would be to stay in the scripture every day and pray and ask God to reveal the truth to you. The other books and information are ok as well but first and foremost follow the scriptures. :)
Tammie - Wife to James for 27 years
Mom to Justin (15) and Carissa (12)
ADV & K 2009-2010 . . . RTR (again) & WHL 2016-2017
http://tammiestime.blogspot.com/
The days of a mother are long but the years are short.
gratitude
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by gratitude »

jasntas wrote:To the OP, my best advice would be to stay in the scripture every day and pray and ask God to reveal the truth to you. The other books and information are ok as well but first and foremost follow the scriptures. :)
Well said Tammie. Great advice. I agree completely. Ultimately my views were shaped by reading Genesis chapters 1 & 2 over and over and praying that God would reveal the truth in them to me, and allow me to see how my own beliefs and science background was correct or incorrect in my thinking. The other books were helpful, but ultimately it was in my time with scripture that impacted me the most and revealed truth to me.
kaiakai wrote:Sure does. I am feeling quite dizzy at the moment. What you said about not being a scientist and having difficulty in figuring out if science is right is exactly how I feel as well.
Hi Kai!
It made my head spin too the time I tried to research this debate on-line, and I have a science background and a degree in Environmental Science, Biology, & Chemistry. It still made my head spin.

I don't know what you have learned so far. So I thought I would out-line some of it for you.

There are 3 basic thoughts, with variations on each one:
1. Christians who follow the Jewish word that means a 24-hour period in Genesis Chapter 1 (young earth). There was evening and then morning the first day. On day 4 the sun was given to rule the light and the moon was given to rule the dark, and then there was evening and morning the fourth day. They also follow the genealogies of the Bible that indicate an Earth of about 6,000 years. If you continue to research you will find the Jewish calendar is slightly shorter than 6,000 years. You will also find a number of books that use 7,000 years in order to merge with the dates of the Egyptian Kings in ancient History. This belief has many books, the Creation museum, and many well renowned scientists who agree with it.

2. Christians who believe in an old earth. This is a belief that began around the 1600 - 1700s. Prior to this no one thought of the world as old. Some thought the fossils were from the flood, some thought they were Satan's deception; but no one thought of the earth as an old earth. So in terms of human history as a whole this idea is new. This idea too has many scientists who will back it. Big conferences to promote it, and many books on the subject.

3. Christians who agree with Darwin and put evolution into Genesis 1. Lengthen the days to billions of years. Claim the world and species evolved over time. I could write my own book on why I disagree with Darwin's theory, but I will refrain at the moment. Mostly it is science that is out-dated, didn't have electronic microscopes to prove the problems with the theory, is not possible to be viewed in a single life-time, and lacks evidence in the fossil record.

We are currently teaching our children what we believe, and have made them a little aware that some people agree with us and some people think differently from us. The 'why' & the 'how' & the basis for each theory and why we agree with one and not the other two I am saving for when the time seems right (Junior High / High school ?).

I found internet research on this topic to be difficult. I would encourage you though to research it, and like Tammie said meditate and search the scriptures. God was there the day was world was created. He is the only one who was there to know the truth. He can lead you. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word is Jesus. Jesus is our closest friend. He knows how the world was created. He will help you sort through the spinning debate.

Here are a few books & DVDs, outside of scripture, that I found to be helpful.

1. The Privileged Planet (google to find it)
2. The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel. I saw that you read things against Lee Strobel. He was an atheist journalism that became a Christian through his interviews of Christians. The Case for a Creator is not information that comes from Lee Strobel, it is information from top scientists that are open minded and willing to look at the science for what it is rather than through the eyes of Darwin. Good scientific observation examines & observes and then comes to a conclusion. Unfortunately, science has moved away from this principle in the area of origins of the Earth. There is some good scientific information both on this DVD and in his book.
3. The Genesis Debate - three views on the days of creation. (book)
4. My favorite: Taking Back Astronomy by Jason Lisle, who has a Ph.D. in Astrophysics. Great book.
5. For Kids: The Great Dinosaur Mystery and the Bible by Paul S. Taylor. It has some good scientific information on fossils and much much more.
6. Archeology - Unwrapping the Pharaohs by David Downs.
7. answersforgenesis.org: search for old earth and then young earth. The site is pro-young earth but does have information on both.
8. Ken Ham's books: Answers for Genesis Book 1 & Book 2. They go into the science some, and when they do it is written by scientists.

Perhaps someone can come along with all of the books supporting an old earth, if you are interested. The above books are where God led my search to. It is the journey he took me on. Now it is time for Him to take you on your own journey that began when you asked this question. When I turned to books, and printed out any articles I found that I wanted to read on the computer it turned the dizziness into a very interesting search that I found fascinating. As Tammie mentioned earlier though the scriptures are the best place to turn.

God Bless,
Dusenkids
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Creation... dinosaurs...YE/OE... MFWK

Unread post by Dusenkids »

jasntas wrote:To the OP, my best advice would be to stay in the scripture every day and pray and ask God to reveal the truth to you. The other books and information are ok as well but first and foremost follow the scriptures. :)
Sometimes we need child like faith. ;) Prayers for your journey.

As for reading, It took me 7 years to learn this so maybe I'll save you some time :~ ... YES IT IS OKAY TO LEAVE OUT PARTS OF A BOOK. SOMETIMES I EVEN CHANGE THE WORDING. I skim the books ahead and "read" what I want them to know at this age (K). Just becuase it is in a "kids book" does not mean that it is appropriate for every kid (or any kid, whole diff topic) I use to be one of those people who had to read every word of every book; Good quality for a reading teacher. Then I became a mom. One of the joys of hs - you teach the kids what they need to know when they need to know it.
Martie
Married to Nathan 15 years
Mom to 8 boys ages 12 to newborn
Have used Kindergarten to Modern
Post Reply