Electives - Finances, Health, Logic

[LA in Baltimore]

Couple questions about electives

I am starting to plan, mostly financially, for school next year. I like the looks of the financial elective course and the health course. Which one would be the better choice for a 10th grade girl? I'll do the next one in 11th grade, I think.

We are using Personal Finance with our 12th grader.
It has a lot to think about in it and makes for great discussions!
I'm sure this is strictly a personal opinion thing, but I think 11th or 12th is a good time for it.

Health seems to fit better in the late junior high/early high school years.
I don't think it would be as "demanding" a course as Personal Finance while they are easing into their high school years.

You didn't mention it, but just thought I'd add...
Introduction to Logic was a great elective! It really gets you thinking!

[Julie in MN]

I'm hoping you get more replies from users or from the office, because I'm curious about experiences with these, too.

My past experience is that both Health and Finances are more geared towards adulthood issues of buying a car, renting an apartment, choosing healthy groceries, and so forth, and so are best done closer to graduation. I remember a conversation where several folks mentioned that the Health seemed a bit challenging in 9th?

The author of Total Health has a 7-8th grade book, and so I would figure there would be a gap between finishing that book and beginning the high school book in say 11-12th. Plus kids often have more time for bigger electives in 12th and typically need more time on getting used to high school basics in 9th.

For 9th, I am considering the Intro to Logic mentioned by LA, driver's ed or phy ed, along with foreign language. I also really like the Stobaugh test prep book and am also thinking about test prep/study skills as an elective...?

Julie

Posted Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:10 pm by Julie in MN
I used Total Health with my older dd, before MFW started using it.

I liked it because it covered all the usual health topics but didn't overly dwell on drugs & such. Most high school health texts I've seen have a focus on the "unhealthy," so I was happy to find Total Health covers those things but spends more time on "health," including mental, social, and spiritual health.

I did use it at an older age. If you try it in 9th, I'd just be aware that it might be a "big" elective to add in as kids get used to a full high school schedule.
Julie

[Bret Welshymer]

The timing of electives should be based on the age of the student and their ability to handle the additional work load of electives. A new high school student may not be ready to take on more work than a traditional schedule of Bible, English, history, math, science, and a foreign language. Based on difficulty and developmental readiness, we recommend taking recommended electives in the following order: Into to Logic (9th grade), Fine Arts (10th grade, suggestions for credit included in WHL lesson plans), Health (11th grade), Personal Finance (12th grade).

[Teresa in TX]

The timing of electives should be based on the age of the student and their ability to handle the additional work load of electives. A new high school student may not be ready to take on more work than a traditional schedule of Bible, English, history, math, science, and a foreign language. Based on difficulty and developmental readiness, we recommend taking recommended electives in the following order: Into to Logic (9th grade), Health (10th grade), Personal Finance (11th or 12th grade).

Thanks for the tips on the electives!! We started out doing the Logic program this year but set it aside, deciding to find our groove just doing the AHL with Biology, Geometry & Spanish. We may do logic next year throughout the year with our future 7th grader, then do the health for 1 semester as well.

[cbollin]

I am looking at our MFW Total Health lesson plans, and it mentions there are no formal tests. I don't see quizzes in our book either, but I do see chapter reviews. When you are mentioning quizzes, are you referring to the chapter reviews?
Puzzled,
~Terri

MFW no longer sells the quiz and test booklet for Total Health. They listened to the feedback from students and parents on how the tests/quizzes were/weren't working.

So, the goals of the lesson plans and goals for taking health came a bit more into focus. Instead of using quizzes (since that makes us all feel like we're reading and just answering questions), MFW updated the lesson plans in a way that still uses the Total Health text, and incorporates more with fitness aspect so that you want to live a healthy lifestyle instead of just taking a class.

Maybe that's not the exact way that MFW would say it. But from comparing the goals of the older version to the goals in the newer version that's how I'm saying it.

i really like this change they made. Even if we had used the "quizzes" as open book or taking notes, I prefer the emphasis on lifestyle and choices, and activities over the quiz/test and forget mindset that might have happened in my house otherwise.

-crystal

[cbollin]

Someone told me the The Fallacy Detective and the other logic book had lesson plans in AHL...right? I've looked through weeks 10 and can't find anything on it. Thanks!

Yep.
They aren't written on the grid part because it is an elective and those will vary among students.

The general plans for it are found in the intro of the DLP (daily lesson plans) under Subjects to Add, Foreign language and Other.
then the specifics are given on week 1, Monday Daily Notes (not grid, but the daily notes) under math science and electives.

very simple:
one plan is start with Fallacy Detective, one chapter a day, four times a week. Follow this by Thinking Toolbox. each book will be about 9 weeks to use.

Postby cbollin » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:18 am
We did Fallacy Detective and TT in a semester. you can take a year, but it is only a semester credit of material. We did the end of chapter questions out loud instead of writing. I got a multiple choice test for FD directly from the Bluedorns to use as a test. There wasn't one for Thinking Toolbox.

here is how the authors of those books (Bluedorns) recommend using those books.
http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... homeschool

and on that link, you can sign up for something and get the test... they don't email newsletters very often at all. I think I got the test and never heard anything else.. so they aren't spamming much. yeah!

but I think this book works best done with someone and talking as you go.
then take time with TV ads, or internet ads, or other things -- what's going on there?

or you might read through the use in classroom to get ideas on making sure you're doing enough
http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... -classroom

how to use TT
http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... -classroom

-crystal

[cbollin]

Could someone please share how you chose to grade the high school Intro. to Logic course?
~Terri

a mish mash of informal plus semi formal:

Oldest would read FD.
Then a few chapters later, I would "make sure" she was sorta getting it by asking the end of chapter questions.
Then, I noticed she was watching ads and reading newspaper articles and starting use the logic vocabulary in her out loud talking about it. So, I realized that she was paying attention.
Then, I guess it was Julie in MN who clued me into an end of book quiz that the Bluedorns make available free via email. You have to sign up for their newsletter and then you get the access code or something like that.
So when oldest was done with Fallacy Detective, she took that multiple choice quiz and scored that. So, I was very comfortable giving her an A on that part.

Thinking Toolbox --I haven't really kept up if she did that or just read it or if she hasn't finished it yet. I know the Bluedorns don't have a quiz for it. I asked them. They said no.
So, I'll probably have her review the book out loud with me this coming week (thanks for the reminder!) using the questions and answers in the book.

but then again, she did well enough on the FD quiz and out loud chapter questions, that's good enough for me to assess and feel comfortable with grades.

I would love to hear how others did/are doing. and/or what MFW recommends. I didn't ask them

-crystal

[Bret Welshymer]

Looking for a good description of the MFW lesson plans for Personal Finance in high school. Someone has asked me about them, and I can't recall. And I'm sure lots of us would be interested, anyways

Are the Personal Finance plans similar to the Rosetta Stone plans, or the Apologia plans? Do they have little suggestions to help along the way (like the Geometry samples for writing notes), or extra ideas outside of the schedule for the two books (like the Rosetta Stone plans)? I see there are Bible verses, but is there any tweaking of the workbook assignments or changes based on experience?

These plans are very inexpensive, so I'm wondering if they are just one chapter a day, one book at a time, a simple schedule to hand our high schoolers & get it done. Or, are things integrated more or parsed out than that? Thanks,
Julie

The lesson plans for Personal Finance are very simple. They simply outline the following plan for using the two books in the package. Plan to work on this course four days a week for one semester. Each day, read the Bible passage and one chapter from one of the two assigned books – you may decide to complete the books one at a time or you may alternate between the two. Write the date completed by each assignment. There are no additional teaching notes in the lesson plans. My son completed this program and found it helpful as he prepares for independent living. He appreciated both the Biblical worldview in Money, Possessions and Eternity and the practical application in Money Matters for Teens Workbook.

[Julie in MN]

Hi. Messrs Bluedorn themselves call their book "The Fallacy Detective" a one credit logic course in their own introduction.
How does MFW arrive at the conclusion that both "Fallacy" and "The Thinking Toolbox" together are a half credit course?

Regards,
Julie Akers
TX
1850-Modern Times

I'm just going to chat with my own guesses because I've never heard any specific discussion about using this for more credit.

I have seen the co-op schedule of doing a chapter a week. MFW recommends a chapter a day, 4 days a week, so 4x as fast as that.

However, I expect co-ops or families doing a chapter a week would be adding things since the chapter can be read and exercises done within 1 hour. The Bluedorn's website mentions co-ops assigning homework, students gathering fallacies at home and identifying them, putting together tests, students playing the game together, voting on one another's fallacy finds, etc. I think it would be fun to do with a bunch of teens.

I'm sure you could spread the class out for one student, as well, but it would take some teaching time I believe.

HTH,
Julie

[Bret Welshymer]

The amount of time needed for the student who reads at an average speed to complete the course is the key to credits earned. When these books were piloted the average amount of time students spent to read and complete the activities in the 2-book set was about 75 hours, one-semester (.5 credit). I agree with Julie that more time could be spend in a classroom setting. However for students working independently at home, the 2-book set is considered a one-semester credit.

[Julie in MN]

My son really enjoyed logic and the Fallacy Detective books. I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions of logic books we could do as a sequel to those books to earn more high school credit in logic. I'm not sure where to check...... Thanks!
Eryn

A few things would come to my mind if we were going down that road:

1. See what the Bluedorns recommend, as they are the authors of the Logic books you've already used. I'm pretty sure they have a recommended sequence. I could see if it was in my copy of Teaching the Trivium if it would help, or maybe they have the info online. Let's see what I can find.

Try this article on their site:
http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... ic-at-home
This seems similar but might have something interesting
http://www.triviumpursuit.com/blog/2012 ... g-logic-3/

2. My son used "Critical Thinking" from Critical Thinking Press. He used it with his book club in about 8th grade, but it was a pretty cut-and-dried Logic sequence. There are two books in that series. It is not Christian but we didn't find it objectionable, and some examples were fun, though not as fun as the Bluedorn set.

3. HSLDA has one recommendation here http://www.hslda.org/highschool/curricu ... ject_logic

4. The HSLDA bookstore has "An Intro to Policy Debate" which might or might not be an interesting direction to head after the Logic you've done. Several families near me seem to head into debate after studying logic.


Maybe someone will also share what their family has done.
Julie

[bujah4]

Julie,
Thanks for the advice I will check out the things you mentioned. Thanks!

[DS4home]

My oldest will be doing AHL next year and I'm debating Health vs. Logic for his elective. I think Health would go along nicely with Biology. But it seems that Logic is recommended to go with 9th grade. Can anyone share some input?
Thanks!

I don't know that I have any real input concerning electives. I did do Logic in their freshman year and saved Health for either junior or senior year.

I kind of see what you are thinking about matching it with Biology, but I don't think it really does much. The first half of the year in Biology covers the other Kingdoms of Monera, Protista, Fungi, and then cells. Second semester Biology gets into the Animal and Plant Kingdoms, but never really goes into studying the human body. So health and Biology would really be two completely different courses.

I think it works better to have taken Biology before the health class. After studying all the foundations of Biology, then you get to focus on the human body and all of its systems and the nutrition it takes to keep it going!

Health also covers different aspects of mental and social health. Personally I think some of those other aspects in the health class are of a more mature nature that are more suited to the older ages. I might just be conservative in my thinking, but that's my take on it.

Just some rambling thoughts I had
Dawn

[TriciaMR]

We're going to do Logic next year... Dd asked to do it to help with being able to defend her faith. I'm good with it. Electives are just that - and she gets to elect when she wants to do them

[Winkie]

Thanks Dawn - that helps a lot.

Trish, I just read your signature and it looks like we're at the same place in the cycle!

[Julie in MN]

Hello everyone! I hope you are having a very Merry Christmas. I am using some of Christmas Break to catch up on grading. I was wondering how anyone grades Logic. Your advice is always appreciated.

Hello,
Happy Christmas to you, as well!

Here's a post with some ideas: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 760#p68760

I did the Logic with my older dd (before MFW had high school). Here is something I copied from the Bluedorn website, and I think it is still current [updated March 2016]:

• FALLACY DETECTIVE
  We will email The Fallacy Detective Test as a PDF file to any teacher who requests it and you can print it on your computer printer. This file contains the test and the teacher’s answer key.

I don't know if the Bluedorns ever finished a test for the 2nd book.


THINKING TOOLBOX
Co-op teaching info:
http://www.christianlogic.com/articles/ ... classroom/
also here http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... classroom/

List of fallacies (with video):
http://www.fallacydetective.com/article ... -fallacies

Also, here is something I wrote up to explain my general approach to grading. It's about writing, but it sort-of applies to everything I graded: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 556#p96556


Maybe after the holidays, you'll hear from more families who have graded this credit. Meanwhile, hope that gives you something to start with,
Julie

[Julie in MN]

I am wondering if MFW uses the Money Matters for Teens written with Todd Temple or the one with Marnie Wooding. The picture looks like the original, but I didn't know how often they update those little pictures. I was given the "new edition" one with Marnie, but if the lessons correspond with the other edition, then I didn't know if I wanted to use it. Or wouldn't it matter which I used? Looking at table of contents online, it looks like the new edition has about 20 more pages of material, and that things are rearranged in different order. . . .so it seems like edition would matter with MFW lesson plans.

Thanks ahead for any help.
Dee

Hi Dee,
Fun to hear from you. Your screen name always makes me hungry for donuts

There are two different types of Money Matters books, and I wonder if that is the source of confusion (or whether there is something recent that I haven't seen yet).

1. Money Matters for Teens workbook, Burkett with Temple, is a workbook format, lots of blanks to fill in. When I looked at the sample at CBD, page 12 was a worksheet to fill out about the various money that passes through a teen's hands during the year (allowance, gifts, odd jobs). This is the one scheduled in the MFW Lesson Plans.

2. Money Matters for Teens book, Burkett with Wooding, has chapters to read on similar topics, with longer text but no worksheets. The book, itself, is smaller (8.5 x 5.5, whereas the other is 8.5 x 11).

Is the book you have more like #2?
Julie

[donutmom]

Hearing my real name makes ME hungry for a donut, too!!!!

Yes, it seems the book I have is like #2. I think the worksheets in the other one will be quite practical & useful, so I will get that book. I had looked at the sample pages on CBD's website, but didn't take note of the worksheet aspect (not that there were too many sample pages to compare!!).

Thanks for your help, Julie. Always appreciate your assistance (to me and to others).

Dee

[TriciaMR]

I was wondering how Logic is scheduled for 9th grade. Does MFW recommend a certain way to do it and, if not, how did YOU do it? We are about half way through The Fallacy Detective this year (8th grade) so I'm wondering if we should step it up and finish it this year or just plan on including it with the second book in 9th grade. Thanks for any suggestions!

We did it as a summer elective Takes the load off during the school year just a bit.

[Julie in MN]

We are reading The Fallacy Detective this year (8th grade) and will complete it. We plan to read the second Bluedorn book as MFW suggests for 9th grade but will need something else to make it enough to count as a credit. Any suggestions? Thank you

Hi Kelly,
I posted some ideas on what to do after Logic here: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 315#p97315

I also had the thought that you could add a project. Not sure if it would be too much for a student getting used to high school, but I was thinking about evaluating a series of ads and rating them on their use of fallacies, or comparing different products and finding out which fallacies tend to be used for which products (cars, beauty products, vs. political promotions, etc.). You could even visit your state legislature, if nearby, and observe logic in action (or not LOL).

If your student will be doing Geometry, there might be a way to tie in geometry proofs to further logic study, too. I read about using geometric proofs to prove one of your beliefs. Maybe that could tie into one of the AHL essays, outlining the essay like a proof.

And there is also review of the books, expanding on things in the books, teaching or presenting the books to other students, basic things like that can fill out a credit, depending on how deep you dig.

Thank you, Julie! This is very helpful. Next year being our first year in high school, I'm not sure exactly what constitutes a credit. I will take some time to check out the link you provided.

Very generally, a high school credit is typically either
(a) completing a body of work generally accepted as a high school credit (e.g. Algebra I or a Science textbook), regardless of time taken, or
(b) completing high school level work that would take the average student approximately 60-90 hours per semester and naming the course clearly.

MFW of course makes all this VERY easy by assigning work, testing it on real students, and creating sample transcripts.

However, some of us pull together our own credit here or there, using one of the above methods. You can read more in books on homeschooling high school (one of the early ones I liked was Senior High: A Home-Designed Form+U+La by Barb Shelton) or checking out trusted sites like HSLDA ( http://www.hslda.org/highschool/docs/Ev ... redits.asp ).

Julie

Thanks, Julie! My summer reading will include on book on high school transcripts!;).

[Kingdomgirl]

I don't know if it counts, (I counted it), but we did Analogies I and Fallacy Detective and "Made You Look" (about advertising).

[donutmom]

Kelly,

I'd ditto Julie's recommendation about finding a project(s). Even spontaneous little ones, besides a bigger project. For example, I was sorting mail the other week, and we had received one of those envelopes filled with coupons and advertisements for local businesses/restaurants. I took out the few we would maybe use and went to toss the rest, when a "fallacy" on one of them jumped off the page. I glanced at the rest, and found many examples on them--especially of the propaganda fallacies. So that became one day's project assignment. And the elections in November will give lots of fodder (I mean opportunities! ) to look for the fallacies from the detective book & logic/reasoning skills. It was funny, we were watching one of the debates this spring, and all of a sudden my 2 boys yelled out the name of one of the fallacies. On their own, with no prompting from me! Their dad was quite impressed. They then listened more intently to that and other debates and news reports/articles to see where they could find them. We've only just begun The Thinking Toolbox, so at the moment I can't give examples on applications from it. There are some other books you could add (like Kingdom Girl mentioned).

An aside from the logic question. . . .I also wanted to recommend a book for your summer reading. A friend discovered a book last fall and told me about it. She checked it from the library and found it helpful enough to purchase it (so that is a huge recommendation, because she doesn't do that--especially if the library has it.) It was authored by a lady that another friend of mine heard speak at a homeschool convention in some other state, and learned lots from. So I figured I better check it out! I did and eventually just bought it myself as well. I wish I had some of the information earlier in our high school journey. It's called Setting the Records Straight: How to Craft Homeschool Transcripts and Course Descriptions for College Admission and Scholarships by Lee Binz. It's easy to read and simple to understand. She has a website, too, but I haven't checked it out (my computer & I have had a love-hate-who's-going-to-survive relationship this year!!! BTW, I think I finally won, as of a week ago. Well, my hubby has, since he's done all the work on it! Anyway. . . .). There are also many other good books to recommend (I read ALOT before I do anything), as well as websites (eg: HSLDA has lots on highschool/transcripts) but I thought I'd share this one as it is my latest read and I found some very helpful tips in it.

Dee

[Kelly1730]

Hi Dee,

Nice to hear from you! I appreciated the book suggestion. I did purchase a book on transcripts at CHAP but I don't think it was by the author you mentioned. I will check and see if our library has it. I cannot believe that we are going into high school! We finished our school year officially this week (spent the past few days working on portfolios) and I told the boys that they are now considered "rising 9th graders".

[Julie in MN]

Curious if anyone has experience with the Drivers Ed course recommended by MFW National Driver Rraining Institute)?
Thanks

Hi R.B.,
Since you haven't had a response yet, I thought I'd chat.

MFW actually doesn't have a recommendation any longer. No one in the office has recent personal experience, so there's no longer a recommendation. You might check HSLDA.

It's been a while for me, but I do remember that doing it at home didn't save us money because our state still required behind-the-wheel and those businesses didn't have a separate pricing without the book portion, so check your state regulations and local programs for comparison.

However, I was glad to spend time with my youngest while he was in driver's ed, rather than shipping him off to an outside class where most of the students were sleeping on their desks or smoking out back (based on the experience of our oldest son and other friends). Safety is very important at this age, so homeschooling driver's ed meant that we could take it seriously. We did several of the suggested projects in the book, including having my son call and interview a repair shop technician and having him change a tire.

Hope that helps a bit!
Julie