6th grade math - Singapore? Saxon?

[cbollin]

6th grade math - START Singapore? Saxon?

Has anyone used a different math program then switched to Singapore in either 6th or 7th?

I looked at the placement tests, and my ds would be at least 2 grades "below" his grade level, which I understand is okay, but how would he ever catch up? Or does it really matter?

Any thoughts from those who have switched in later elementary years would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Michele

My oldest switched in the middle of 5th grade. Started in 4B. Within a calendar year she had actually finished 6B. I guess she worked about 45 minutes or maybe 55 minutes most days in math for a while and did some summer stuff too? It's all a blur now that she's in 7th grade. But she had finished the elementary sequence of another program in the middle of 5th grade and I didn't think she needed pre-algebra that young. So I was always interested in Singapore and seemed like a great time to try it.

Placement: It's quite common to have a child place about 1.5-2 book numbers below US grade level.

MFW is recommending that the ending point at end of 6th grade would be book 5B. And then in 7th grade, MFW recommends to switch to Saxon. So if you switched at 4A, you'd set a goal of doing 4A, 4B, 5A, 5B this year. The "hard part" would be learning a little bit using bar diagrams to think about the "algebra" problems in the Singapore way. But Julie in MN was very kind to help catch me up quickly to the Singapore way of thinking. And it was fantastic to solve problems that way at that level in the book!!!!!

I think MFW suggests (on their main website) that if your 6th grader starts in Singapore, he should spend at least 75 minutes a day on math. Once your child has progressed sufficiently so that he is on track to finish 5B by end of 6th grade, he can complete one lesson per day as scheduled in MFW plans.

To help you get a feel for how much, how long, etc.
4A about 62 lesson days.
4B has about 66 lesson days
5A has about 53 lesson days
5B has about 58 lesson days

So, you've have to do more than one lesson per most school day and probably do math 5 days per week instead of 4. The lessons are usually short, so it won't be too bad.

I liked switching to Singapore for the word problems and approaches to solving them, and my dd really like how they do Ratio problems.

oh.. .I just remembered a nice chime in by David Hazell a few months back about some of this
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... ght=#36291

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

Michele,
It wasn't Singapore, but I switched math for my older daughter as late as the middle of Algebra.

What happened was that I had a little review from another source that I decided to use as a filler. I found that she didn't recognize the things she knew when they were presented in another way. That was a huge reason to change for me.

After that, she was able to plow through higher maths without a problem. I think it benefited her to understand what she was doing. Not every single detail, but overall. And as a homeschool principal, I was able to make a switch like that work.

Also, if you really feel led to make this change and it puts him behind, I don't think that Algebra by 8th grade is an absolute must. Even if he must wait until 9th to do Algebra, he still has room for 4 years of high school math, including Practical Math or (Pre-)Calculus. The only loss is a certain amount of cushion room.

[Michele in WA]

Thank you both for your answers. Does give me something to think about. Not an "ah-ha" moment, but more of an "ahhhhhh". :-) As ds is going through the curriculum we already have right now, it is all review, and it seems so, well, basic, like he should be doing more, although I know more will come later in the book.

And, so, I keep waiting for the Lords leading....

Thank you again!
Michele

[sewardmom]

One more testimony here. Our dd was finishing 6th grade and tested well into Saxon 8/7 (we had been doing Abeka prior to that) . She struggled and started hating math.

I talked with David Hazell at our convention this last spring (March 2008). He recommended testing her in Singapore and doing the 75 min. a day thing to catch her up. He aslo recommended we stop Saxon A.S.A.P. I really felt he was right but I had a little trouble with taking her so far back if she tested lower than grade level (concerned about her being even more discouraged). I chatted with the VideoText author/speaker and he told me the same thing! Stop Saxon A.S.A.P. and get her into Singapore or Math u See.

I also ran into another MFW mom at the convention who had the same problem and did what David recommended and her daughter was doing much better.

Our daughter is a smart girl and she tested in 3B. DD and her younger sister tested into Singapore at the same level. We prayed and talked with them about our Singapore decision. My husband decided to start them in 3A since they had tested high in Saxon and still struggled.

We started Singapore 3A in beginning of May 2008. It is the end of Sept. and they are just starting 5A. Yes, some parts have been easy for them. However mental math and some other things have not been so easy. I have also found that just the way Singapore presents some concepts have helped them to understand some things better.

At this point , I am glad we switched to Singapore. After I read David H.'s comment about the woman in OH, I wanted to give testimony as well.

~TErri

[Michele in WA]

Terri,
Thank you for your wonderful testimony! That is definitely an encouragement and help to me. I kept thinking, too, how in the world would he ever "catch up", but I"m so glad that it really does work. Amazing that even the Video Text author said to do the same thing David recommended.

Thanks again, Terri, and everyone who is helping me with this decision!

Blessings,
Michele

[MFW-Lucy]

Hi Michelle and all,

I thought I would chime in here to give a little bit more behind MFW's choices for math.

The reason we have chosen Singapore Math is because it teaches logic, problem solving, and mental math skills. It teaches the student to think mathematically. When you meet a "math person," who is familiar with Singapore, they often tell you Singapore teaches math the way they think about math.

We would like to continue using Singapore for grades 7-12, however Singapore does not offer tools for parents to confidently teach and/or oversee students using the more advanced programs.

After an extensive review of different math programs we have chosen to use Saxon Math with Jacobs Geometry for grades 7-12. We sell Saxon with daily lesson plans and the DIVE instructional CD. This CD will teach your student the lessons in the Saxon books.

The Hazell's children who have used this combination of teaching have scored well on college entrance exams.

I hope that helps some.

Lucy

[MFW-Lucy]

Michele,

I just wanted to reiterate that we have seen kids in 6th grade benefit from moving to Singapore. If they work for the 75 minutes each day on math moving through the material at a faster pace than the scheduled one lesson a day we have seen many kids go from 1A to 5 or even 6B in some cases.

In your sons case he is starting at 4A which would be very doable for him, if he and you are committed to working hard and moving through the material spending the time needed.

If you have any further questions we would be happy to talk with you in the office.

Blessings,
Lucy

[Michele in WA]

Thanks again, Lucy, for the encouragement. I started thinking that even if we "had" to go longer than the normal school year, that it might be beneficial for him in the long run. Still a little worried about switching to Singapore, then right after moving into Saxon? But I understand the reasoning.

Thank you !
Michele

[MFW-Lucy]

I hope someone with middle school/high school age kids has some advice for me here.

5th grade dd is on track to finish Singapore 5B by the end of this school year. I would like her to begin Algebra 1 in 8th grade (or before, if she is ready based on her previous math work).

Would either of these options work, and if so, would one be better than the other:

6th grade: Singapore 6A/6B
7th grade: Saxon Algebra 1/2
8th grade: Saxon Algebra 1

6th grade: Saxon Math 8/7
7th grade: Saxon Algebra 1/2
8th grade: Saxon Algebra 1

Or is there some other sequence I don't know about, that would be preferable to either of these? I don't even know if Algebra 1/2 is the "right" level to use after Singapore 6A/6B.

Dear Kris,

When Saxon updated the 7th grade math 8/7 to include pre-algebra, the recommendations changed on the Saxon site. My Father's World has adopted these recommendations.

We recommend that a student complete at least 5B or above by the end of 6th grade. If 5B is completed earlier, we recommend continuing with Singapore through 6th grade. After completing at least 5B by the end of 6th grade a student moves into Saxon 8/7 with pre-algebra in 7th grade. As already mentioned, if they score 80% or higher on the final test they are able to move into Algebra 1 in 8th grade. We do not recommend the placement test for students entering the 7th grade who have complete at least through Singapore 5B.

If you have more questions, please ask here or give us a call at the office.

Lucy

[cbollin]

Kris,

My oldest enjoyed using Singapore 6A and 6B in 6th grade There were lots of challenging word problems in there. There were problems in there that stumped me once in a while. I'm glad we went with 6A and 6b in 6th grade and then Saxon 87 in 7th grade. My kid is a really strong math student. And for kids who don't get around to those books, it will be ok and fine and dandy. But if you can use them while still in elementary school, go ahead.

-crystal

[cbollin]

My now 5th grader will finish Singapore 5B at the end of this school year. I am just starting to plan for next year and was wondering if I should start Saxon or continue on with Singapore 6A and 6B? One reason I ask is that neither my husband nor I are math whizzes!! Some of the 5B has been a struggle to teach and understand, I'm not sure how I'll manage 6A and B. My thinking was with Saxon we could begin using the DIVE Cd's and probably start Saxon at level 87. Looking at the Saxon placement test, I think that is where she would fall. Would that be too hard for a 6th grader? She's doesn't love math, but it comes pretty easily to her. Thanks in advance!!

I'd go with Singapore 6A and 6B and wait on Saxon 8/7 until 7th grade. Well, that's what my oldest did at any rate. and I'm very glad that we didn't try to do Saxon 8/7 with her a year early. It's not hard for her, it is more time consuming, more tests. etc. and it was nice to use Singapore 6A/B during the 6th grade year. There wasn't a lot of new material necessarily (there were a few things), but more challenges in word problems. Good thinking skills. (and yeah, even if a kid places in Saxon Alg I after finishing Singapore, and is going into 7th grade, it is good to use 8/7 with that kid. They'll learn about taking notes, and learning from a textbook and it will bridge the gaps from Singapore to Algebra. I still think my daughter placed higher in the Saxon placement test than she was really in. She was able to take the test well. But, we're seeing some standard "pre algebra" stuff that we're glad to be covering in 8/7. She'll still be on an advanced track that way too.

You can get the Home Instructor's Guide for Singapore 6A and 6B to use as a solutions manual for the times your child will be stuck on some of the challenging problems. check a place like Rainbow Resources for those. Just don't over teach from those guides especially from Unit 2 in 6A. The kids don't need to know all of the stuff that the home instructor's guide talks about.

[Julie in MN]

I also vote for 6A/B. Doing Singapore 6 was where it all paid off in Singapore for my son. He easily knew when to use bar diagrams to solve even the most complicated word problems. He felt very successful.

And for the "teacher," it's really not much harder than 5. We got stumped in 5 on occasion, too. But it pays off! Basically 6 seems the same as a pre-algebra program, with more connections to real life situations shown via the word problems.

Here are the kinds of things in Singapore 6:

* A very short introduction to algebra (using letters for unknowns)
* Deeper coverage of previous topics, like changing fractions into percents & back, ratios but now 3 numbers are compared and you have to find a common multiple, etc.
* Learning miles per hour & average speed
* Lots of geometry, including learning Pi using Singapore's simple pictures and gentle steps
* Tons of reviews and practices of all levels of math

Julie

[girlzx3]

Thank you both very much. That helps a lot. We'll stick with Singapore one more year. I'm glad to hear there's not tons of new material.

[MJP]

I also would go with Singapore, but I did need those guides in 6A and 6B (just using them when we were stuck).

[s_duguid]

I was at the MassHOPE convention yesterday and got to talk with Bret. He suggested that I follow up with this post to make a clarification regarding Singapore math. The clarification is that ideally MFW would have a child finish 6B and then continue on to Saxon. At the minimum, they suggest that by the end of 6th grade, a child finish 5B and then transition into Saxon for 7th grade.

After reading recent posts I was wondering if level 6 was even necessary, but I am still a little reticent to push her into Saxon 8/7 too soon. Level 6 will give her the extra reinforcement she needs before transitioning into Saxon.

A 6th grader finishing level 5B will transition all right into Saxon, but a younger student should really do level 6.

[Julie in MN]

but a younger student should really do level 6.

Sue,
I think probably there are some folks falling between the cracks & not realizing the details on these things.

Crystal often shares her testimony about not rushing towards Algebra too early. I know that it can and has been done (doing pre-algebra/Saxon 8/7 in 6th grade and then Algebra in 7th), but by far *most* kids will struggle through thinking so abstractly before 8th grade. In most cases, Algebra will just go faster & easier if you wait until 8th grade.

And Singapore 6A/B is great, with broad skills reviewed and in-depth thinking about word problems, so kids are fortunate if they have the opportunity to use it before moving on to Saxon!

Julie

[cbollin]

clarifying further if the 6A and 6B have any value.... My oldest did complete 6A and 6B in 6th grade. They weren't wasted books or anything and will really benefit the kid who gets to use them. But again, I reached the same conclusion that MFW did: get AT LEAST through 5B. Go higher if you still have time in elementary.

There weren't lots of new topics covered in 6A and 6B -- it was more review and lots (and I mean lots!) of challenging word problems. So there was some depth going on with the books. Definitely not a waste of time to use them if you have time before 7th grade.

Does that make any sense of the value of doing 6A and 6B, but also show that it is not "required" to rush through the other books if your child is not on track to be there by end of 6th grade? maybe that is where the confusion was. Recently someone else was concerned that they were 2-3 years behind, when they weren't.

-crystal

[cbollin]

Who out there can help this gorillamama try to envision what next year's math schedule will look like? This is our first year to use Singapore Math. Placement tests were given today and I have a 2nd grader in 1A, a 3rd grader in 3A and a 6th grader in 3A.

It's that 6th grader I am a little worried about. We are coming from Horizons Math. She has completed K-5 with overall grades of As, Bs, and Cs depending on the school year...but only placed at 3A with a 78% which I understand is okay as the blurb on the website indicated a student may test one or two (or more!) levels below actual grade level. Now, here's the big question...how on earth do we get to level 5b at the end of this year? It seems a bit overwhelming to squeeze that many levels into a school year. My 6th grader does not enjoy math either so this will most likely seem like torturous punishment to her...I am not super familiar with Singapore Math to understand how things may work and am switching to this math based on MFW's recommendations and the feeling that my 3rd grader will excel with this program and my 1st and 6th grader may benefit from a change. So, if anybody out there has some insider info that can assist us with the bigger picture, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks!
Crystal (gorillamama)

I don't have personal experience in doing this... 6th grader starting in 3A, aiming to finish 3a 3b 4a 4b 5a 5b in one year.

I would start the 6th grader earlier in books than younger students. let this student have the feeling of at least being ahead in the book. Plan for an hour a day in math with this student. It is most likely that some parts of some books will go very quickly than other parts. It's always possible that placement test is picking up gaps, and that the some parts will be ok for student.

well.. to be honest here... if I were you, I'd pick up the phone, call mfw office. Ask specifically to speak with David Hazell on this. He will have to call you back as it's convention season. It's possible that Lucy or someone else has heard David answer this individualized plan before and would know what he would advise. He has helped 6th graders go through singapore and has really solid advise with older student starting the program. I think it would be best to talk on the phone with him, or someone in his office with his answers. I've seen one of david's post where a 6th grader started in 1A or 1B and got through a lot in one year. So... it can be done.

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

I'm agreeing that I haven't chatted with anyone who's done this & David Hazell probably has. Maybe someone else will chime in who has?!

My one thought is that some of the units might be discussed briefly (in case the textbook looks at things in a new way) and the rest skipped. I know my son had the whole money thing down pat

Julie

[meagabby]

I'm letting you know it can be done... I don't have tips for you but I can say that I have a dd 7th grade that was still struggling with math until this last month. And I mean struggling.

This year we've done multiple strategies to cement the concepts--drill and don't move ahead if there is the least bit if confusion. Use manipulatives.

I agree to spend an hour a day on math. At first I thought my dd would just dawdle to let the time pass, OR whine about that long of a time. But in reality, we discussed how much ground she needs to cover and when we got into it, the parts she understood, she actually wanted to move forward. She gained confidence and hasn't looked back.

Call the office, they are a great help. I felt honored that David would call personally. Yes, it was convention time when I called to, but he does as soon as he can. Very encouraging and enabling.

Much luck to you,
Dena

[gorillamama]

Thank you crystal, Julie, and Dena!

I am going to call office right now!

Crystal (gorillamama)

Follow-up: Posted Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:57 pm by gorillamama
I posted recently about placement tests with my 6th grader at 3a and felt like, "o.k. how on earth do we cram in 3a/b, 4a/b, and 5a/b for the 6th grade year?" After my "board buddies" encouraged me to call the MFW office, I did and was very encouraged by their help. Perhaps, you may want to call as well. Super helpful!

[cbollin]

Post back and tell us what they say. I'm interested!!

Florence,
Here are some general tips that MFW says when older students are in Singapore. in Crystal's case.. it's a little different and needs that personal touch.

• Placement for Grades 3-6
  
  A student new to Singapore Math should take the Singapore placement test and begin where placed. Don't think of the Singapore books as being tied to grade levels; Level 2B does not necessarily correlate to 2nd grade. Singapore Math is a very strong program; expect your child to test one or two (or more) levels below his actual grade level. As your child works in Singapore, remember the goal is to complete at least Level 5B by the end of 6th grade (Some students may easily be able to reach 6B, and should be encouraged to do so.)
  
  Many children who switch to Singapore after 2nd grade will need to complete more than one lesson a day until they are on target to complete this goal. The following time recommendations will help your child catch up.
  
  3rd and 4th graders (who are behind) should spend at least 45 minutes a day on math.
  5th graders (who are behind) should spend at least 60 minutes a day on math.
  6th graders (who are behind) should spend at least 75 minutes a day on math.
  
  Once your child has progressed sufficiently so that he is on track to finish at least Level 5B by the end of 6th grade, he can complete one lesson per day as scheduled in the MFW lesson plans.

I know with my oldest, it wasn't that hard to do 4B 5A 5B 6A and 6B from middle of 5th grade to end of 6th grade. Yes, we did some summer work and did math 5 days a week, and yes, she was stronger in math. I was generally surprised that we could get through as much as we did.

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

We will be doing MFW in the late summer with our 12 yr old and 9 yr old. I really want to find something for math. We have flip flopped so much and I dont believe we have found what works for us. We started with Rod & Staff and stayed with it for a few years but it was a struggle, then this year we tried Saxon and it seems to me that we didnt move ahead much. I want to find something and stick with it. My 12 year old daughter really struggles, I feel like we need to go back to the basics with her. She can add, subtract just fine. She struggles with multiplication and division. I dont know what direction to take, I am very concerned. Your help, experience and advice is greatly appreciated.

Hi TeryLee66,
How are your kids' math facts? If those are sketchy, I might start right now with a plan for getting math facts practice done every day. Lots of ideas for that here:
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1141
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8429

Once they get going on your plan for that, you will have some time to dig into curriculum. MFW recommends Singapore thru 6th grade and Saxon after that. Those are solid recommendations and folks here will be able to support you in getting started with them, because so many use them. Other programs are out there, too. Maybe you could chat more about where they are at and what you see as their needs. If you're not sure, then you might take some time just observing them doing math and taking some notes. I did that every year with my kids and it helped me set goals.

Welcome

Thanks Julie, I guess I probably been a bit more detailed, lol. My 12 year old knows her addition, subtraction and 80 percent of her multipliction tables, but not as quickly as I would like. I can explain the lesson in Saxon to her and she still struggles and questions her every move. She doesnt retain it very well. I am very patient with her, but she still gets discouraged easily, no matter how much I cheer her on. I am wondering if I should go back a bit to gain some confidence. I think my daughtr is my major concern, but woukd love advice on both of them.

Blessings,
Terry

Terry,
I think some Singapore may loosen your dd up about "math thinking" vs. "memorizing what I'm supposed to do." It may be an adjustment at first, but if you have time to just chat about the textbook diagrams, she may start to see that there are many ways to think about math, and she doesn't need to remember what exactly she's supposed to do when, but instead just jump in and try something.

I'd think if she's willing to spend some time this summer, it would be worth a shot to help her see that math is just moving around the numbers of things that we have, etc.

Julie

[asheslawson]

I called the office and was given really good advice on this.

For us - we went with Singapore for my ds, now 11, but last year in 4th grade, having come out of public school doing great in math, but our school was WAY behind, we started him in 2A and we do math year round till he gets caught up. He's in 4A now, so with my goal to finish 5B before next May 2013, I think we are well on the way. This has worked, and the David Hazell said he has often seen children start this far back and even farther. It's more important that they grasp the concepts and understand, than it is to move them through it quickly.

My dd will start Singapore 1A as soon as we finish MFW 1st. We are happy with it.

[ilovemy4kids]

I'd suggest the Singapore placement tests, place them where they land, follow MFW suggested sequence and just let it all work out......

Blessings
Sandra