Spelling - Why two spelling recommendations?

[cbollin]

Why Spelling Power and not continue with SSS?

My daughter loves spelling by sound and structure and I'm wondering why MFW suggests switching to Spelling Power instead of staying with Spelling by Sound and Structure. I need to be convinced that it will be worth switching, since she enjoys SbSaS so much!

Jesse,
Why the switch? Spelling Power works best with 8 year olds and up. So SbSaS gives something to use for 2nd graders. SP can be modified for youngest users. But the SbSaS is a nice grade level workbook that isn’t overwhelming.

SP is a one book for all ages from 8 through high school --- so over time it is very cost effective because it is a one time purchase for everyone.

SP is multisensory in its approach. It isn’t just worksheet, it isn’t just tactile spelling.

One of the features of SP is that you only study words in each of the phonics spelling group that you don’t know how to spell. The word lists are group by phonics sounds and then some of the lists deal with non-phonics based spellings such as irregular plurals, certain capitalization rules for spelling, adding suffixes, etc.

In order to determine which words to study, I tweak SP a little bit from their recommendation for the initial pre-test. We don’t really do the pre test the way it says to do it. My middle child studies the whole list without any pre test involved (she likes to practice words that she knows). My oldest child does better to modify that pre test step --- we’ll call out the words on the group rule list, she spells out loud the ones that she 100% knows and just says “I’ll study that one” for words that she is unsure of. If she guesses wrong, she tends to guess it wrong for a long time, so I eliminated the guessing aspect.

Then I re-sort the list in each phonics rule so that similar words are together. In other words, when you study a sound, there are several options for making that sound, such as long A can be spelled A silent E, ei, eigh, ay, ai. Well, in SP you are learning words within a phonics sound, I just reorder that phonics sound list so that we first study all of the ai words, then all of the ay words. Then on test day at the end, I mix it up.

In addition to the things that we say about it, you might want to look off of this message board onto what is known in some internet circles as The Paula H Archives. That’s not a mfw site or anything. So it’s nice to see other homeschoolers in other curriculum using and liking SP.
http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/SPmenu.htm
but of course come back to MFW's site for purchasing it <wink wink>

I think the Quick Start Video is very valuable (on the paula archives, she doesn’t think so.) I think the quick start video helps to guide you through the program and it is included in 4th edition.

And the MFW teacher’s manual guides you through which pages to read in the SP book so that you have time to get use to the program. The SP gives very long and very detailed instructions.

-crystal

[TurnOurHearts]

Hi Jesse :)

I grappled with the very same decision at the beginning of this year. We had a wonderful time with SbSaS ~ my son & I both loved it. When it came time for our required end-of-year state testing, however, Max's scores weren't great in spelling. Now, this was NOT a SbSaS issue ~ this was just my math kid's weakest area. After freaking out for about 24 hours, I remembered how much fun we'd had, how much we'd both enjoyed spelling, determined that Max didn't have to be the BEST in every subject, and decided NC's expectations for a 2nd grader might be inflated (come on, how many 7 year-olds can spell beautiful?!). ;)

But, because of the low test score we decided Max might need something a bit different, so once again, we chose to follow the MFW recommendations. So far, we're batting 1000. Using the quick-start DVD that Crystal mentioned, and following Marie's suggestions in the TM, we've really found our groove in SP. My son is very much the perfectionist. I just began giving Max a list of the next group of words when we would begin a new one (when we begin Group 4, I give him a copy of the words in Group 5 to look over). He has a chance to at least have a look, and this has resulted in more confidence, less tears.

It's still not Max's favorite subject, but HE can tell he's improved. I don't believe in 'one size fits all,' but for us, we've been very pleased with what we've done thus far. Our options are still all out there, but until we need to search them out, we're sticking pretty close to the MFW suggestions.

By the way, we got Max's test scores back from this year and his spelling scores jumped by 50%! Whoopidee-DOO!! :)

HTH ~

[cbollin]

How come MFW switched from Spelling by Sound and Structure to Spelling Power and why they didn't use one or the other all the way through?

Spelling Power starts at 3rd grade according to Spelling Power. There are suggestions on how to let younger kids use it. For a while (before ADV was written), MFW suggested using SP in 2nd grade, but enough of us were ignoring Spelling Power's advice on how to use the program at that age and we whined to MFW about it... .and well......

SBSS (Spelling by Sound and Structure) is there to hold them over until 3rd grade so that you don't skip a year with no spelling. It's a workbook approach for a year to be just enough. It's a filler year and was added in when they wrote ADV.

-crystal

[cbollin]

Do you think that MFW/the Hazel's think R & S spelling to be inferior to SP at higher grades? I really like the recommendations from MFW, and want to stick with them! Also, I am very much "not" a curriculum junkie or jumper! But, I don't want to fix what's not broken.....I felt my son would not be ready for SP in 3rd grade and he really enjoyed R & S spelling in 2nd so we went with that(plus the "up front cost" was less, which was important/necessary to us at that time).

Thank you,
Debbie

Hi Debbie.

I don't know is my best answer. I can speculate. My guess is that they wouldn't think it "inferior", but rather didn't meet some of their wishes for non consumable whenever they can.

I remember this much of what I think I know:
MFW originally went with SP as its choice and for a while recommended it for grades 2 and up. Well, MFW listens to feedback from customers and I know I was among those who said SP just probably works better if you wait a year and start in "3rd grader age". Even SP really says that about itself too, but does include instructions for younger kids, but the feedback wasn't as good... and Well, then, in the long history timeline.... ADV was written for 2nd graders and MFW started to recommend 2nd graders use R&S that year since it is a good program.

now, why not change the whole recommendation and stick with the whole series if it is a good program? Good question. I don't know the full answer on that but, I know this much about book choices that MFW makes and can make a good guess based on what MFW wrote on a thread about decisions of their book choices. Here's the pull quote

3. When given the choice of several books of similar quality, we will often choose the more affordable book. We also choose non-consumable products whenever we can. Our goal is to make our programs as affordable as possible for as many families as possible, while providing strong academics and moral content.

So, I would speculate that the choice to stay with SP had to do with those issues (similar quality book, but non consumable, use with many years and many levels at once) and not a better at higher grade level/stage of learning issue.

-crystal

Postby cbollin » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:44 pm
hmm... got to thinking a bit more about SP vs R&S or whatever....
One of the other neat things with Spelling Power is that it is using multi sensory techniques for teaching rules and applying them at many levels of "grades". So that has an advantage that it has potential to help more learning styles. So, I'm still speculating out loud that is one more of the reasons MFW went with it.

[mommywings2006]

We've used R & S since 2nd grade and have continued to use it through this year, 7th grade. I would have to say that R & S lacks spelling rule concentration, though it is taught. Just not enough review of rules in MHO.
Bev

[LA in Baltimore]

Coming from a mom who has had 4 in a spelling at the same time
(and I'm sure there are more moms out there who have many more than that!)...
Just the amount of daily direction, correcting, and then going back over the work that was incorrect with EACH student EACH day can make spelling a bear when it doesn't have to be.

We have used both R&S and Spelling Power over the years and like both of the programs very much.
Spelling Power certainly lightened the load!

[tiffany]

I am currently using R&S with my 3rd grader, and we use SP here as well. My older three had no problem with the SP format, but my 3rd grader is just more sensitive and insecure. I liked R&S so I saw no reason to switch with him. I'll make the transition at 4th grade for him. One plus, is they show the words in cursive as well. I might start a cursive program with him in conjunction with it.

[Amy in NC]

My oldest used R&S for 3rd grade because she struggles with spelling and SP was terrifying. But R&S 4th grade seemed very cumbersome and a lot of busy work, so we dropped it. By then she was ready for SP. So sometimes it may take longer than 3rd grade for a kid to be ready for SP. HTH.

[wisdomschool]

My son loves the SPELLING BY SOUND AND STRUCTURE. Jake is such a creature of habit and just about flipped when I mentioned trying a new spelling and I know he likes what he is doing.

Has anyone just stayed with this instead of switching to SPELLING POWER? I feel so up in the air about it all. We just have 3 weeks left of Adventures (boo hoo, we really love it) and are super excited to start ECC next year.

My son really enjoyed Spelling by Sound and Structure, and as a 2nd grader he zipped right through it! So he was ready for something new before he became a "3rd grader"--we went with SbSS for 3rd grade, he hasn't zipped along quite as fast, in fact we are not quite done with it and are close to ending our 3rd grade year.

We have really enjoyed SbSS and I have actually been contemplating "what" to do for 4th grade......I really like MFW recommendations, yet I don't know what Spelling Power is like.......

I'm looking forward to reading the other responses you get!

Blessings,
Debbie

[BHelf]

I too thought about just sticking with SbSS for 3rd grade because of cost and my comfort level of just opening up the workbook and "doing spelling." I'm going to repost what I wrote to someone who was wanting a comparison between a different program and SP. I will say that my DD hasn't retained a whole lot from SbSS. That could just be because she isn't really a workbook person (and I am--so that is difficult for me!) but Spelling Power incorporate all the different learning styles while learning the words so that, I believe, all children will learn and retain what they have learned by using it if you use the methods they describe in the book. Here is what I wrote:

I'm not the best one to answer this question as I've only used the R&S Spelling by Sound & Structure before buying SP last week but I just wanted to add my (novice) opinion. Over the long haul SP is very cost effective considering it is a non-consumable book (and cards) and lasts from age 8 through high school and therefore I can use it with all of my children for their (almost) entire school career.

I was extremely nervous about buying this book. I am used to just an open and close workbook approach for spelling. (Even from my own schooling.) I spent a lot of time reading the Quick Start Steps in the book and still felt a little overwhelmed so I grabbed my DD and asked her to "help" me learn how this spelling program worked. So, we started with the survey test and then after grading that, moved on to the placement test. It told me what I pretty much figured--she needed to start at the very first Flow-Word List Group. But I love the review methods for spelling. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the activity cards and their ideas for practicing spelling--this program very much suits my daughter and the way she learns and I know it will my other kids as well due to the way they already learn things. I firmly believe my DD will retain her spelling rules better with this program and therefore become more confident in writing and reading! I am excited! So, even though I can't compare the program, I just wanted to add what I thought about SP.

If you could borrow something I think that would be awesome. My DD is really liking SP (although granted this is our first week) because of the activities. You could incorporate them with any spelling program but she just wasn't retaining and learning enough of the "rules" with R & S. I am hoping she will with SP. Good luck!

[kerby]

For first grade I added another spelling and our daughter likes it alot. However it takes over 30 minutes for us. This is where "Spelling by Sound and Structure" comes in. I read it only takes 15 minutes a day and is easy to implement. Now I don't know which one to get for 2nd grade. What do you think and why?

I've used both, and both have their place for certain dc/situations. If what you are using is working and your dc is enjoying it - keep it up but I would definitely limit the amount of time.

SbSaS is good because they use the words in context, have similar spellings in the lists (but they aren't limited to those), and they are more independent. But, they don't go over the rules as explicitly. The rules ARE covered, so don't get me wrong. They are just done in a different manner.

[MFW-Lucy]

I am just chiming it to give a little clarification on why MFW has chosen to use Spelling by Sound in Structure for one year before moving to Spelling Power.

SBSS is a very light introduction to spelling with some review of phonics. Spelling Power is not recommended before 3rd grade. This is when we are beginning a formal approach to spelling. Spelling Power is our recommendation, but you may use any spelling program you choose with the curriculum.

Our First Grade program is a solid phonics program, but does not try to teach spelling directly while teaching reading. Because many children can not do both at the same time we are not expecting that all the phonics learned during first grade are being transferred to spelling. As children become more confident in reading it is then easier to begin formal instruction in spelling. The First Grade program includes simple spelling.

MFW incorporates copy work into each year's curriculum beginning with first grade and continues with this through our English recommendations (Primary and Intermediate Language Lessons). Each week the memory verse is used as copy work and dictation as well. Copy work is a great way to learn many language skills including spelling, naturally.

MFW is using both a natural and direct approach to teaching spelling. Again the program you use is your choice, but we recommend helping children to first have a firm foundation in phonics through leaning to read before beginning a formal spelling program.

Lastly, someone commented that Spelling Power took them to long. It should not take longer than 15-20 minutes, 5-7 minutes from the parent/teacher and about 10-15 more for kids to study the words they missed. Like it was mentioned above, using a timer can be helpful especially to keep from calling out words for more than 5 minutes each day. I used this program with 2 different kinds of spellers and both improved their spelling skills.

[mamacastle2]

If you do spelling by your computer, you can use this website as your timer - http://www.online-stopwatch.com/full-screen-stopwatch/. We set it for 5 minutes and stop immediately when our time is up. My dd never takes more than 10 minutes to finish studying spelling, and often has no words to study so we've only taken 5 minutes on the subject. Hope this helps!

[cbollin]

side note.... I know MFW 1st isn't designed to teach spelling while learning phonics, but I really like how MFW 1st lays a great foundation for spelling rules so that first graders who are already reading still get lots of "other side of phoncis" (spelling) in there.

One other cool thing in SbSaS: beginning vocab program too in gentle ways.

some educational ideas out there, don't really start "formal" spelling instruction until 3rd/4th grade

No matter what program set the timer, do go over 15 minutes Just pick up the next day. 1st/2nd grade is young enough that you have a lot of time on your hands with it.

-crystal

[Erna]

I am looking for a workbook spelling program. Thanks!

We did Rod and Staff for an extra year. Eventually, it became more complicated without following their program.

Erna, Would it have been better to have continued R & S in later grades? (I take it that at some point you stopped using R & S Spelling.) Thanks!

The spelling books became more complicated and may have been easier to use if we were following Rod and Staff's program is what I meant to convey. There were some concepts being taught, which might have been aligning with Rod and Staff's other programs (that is my guess). The work started to become difficult and took away from the spelling aspect for us. My daughter actually requested going back to Spelling Power.

[albanyaloe]

Hi Mommywings2006
R&S is lovely, but I do know that some of their diacritical markings and special groupings of phonics come into their spelling curriculum, and confused us. So it caused a problem too. Fine if you used their phonics in early grades- you'll catch on to it easily.

It may be helpful to also ask yourself what you want from your workbook curriculum. For example, do you like a spelling curriculum to cover a certain group of words, for example based on usage, or on phonetics, or on theme? Do you mind if the spelling book contains lists of incorrectly spelled words that the child must correct? Must the word appear in cursive in the text or plain? How long must each unit be- a week or can it be longer? This can help narrow down your choices, it is a sea of choice out there, isn't it?

Hope you find what works for you.

Lindy

[4Truth]

With my older two, we were already using Building Spelling Skills from Christian Liberty Press when we found MFW. It was working, so we just stuck with it. I like BSS because it's uncomplicated, inexpensive, teaches the rules as you go (but not overkill and not confusing), gives them practice using the words, and integrates vocabulary at the same time. Especially when you get to the 5th grade text where the units are broken up by topic, and the spelling/vocab words are grouped together by topic. Some of the topics include geography (by different parts of the world), flowers, music, business terms.... there's quite a variety! I do find BSS to be slightly advanced, though, so if you decide to try it, you should look at the samples in order to choose by content rather than the number on the front cover.

That said, I still haven't decided what to use with my youngest. She's very delayed in her language arts skills due to a speech disorder, so it's slow-going for her. I tried BSS with her at one point and decided it wasn't time yet. (I think they benefit from being able to read at least on grade level and be comfortable with words before doing "spelling" as a separate subject. We focus a LOT on just working with words in various contexts at this point.) I discovered ~ by accident ~ with dd #2 that continuing phonics side by side with spelling for a while was beneficial. (Even though she was reading.) BSS and Adventures in Phonics (also from CLP) seem to work in tandem with one another, as one is decoding and the other encoding. After completing Book C of AIP, she was then ready to continue with spelling alone and did fine. But when I had dropped the phonics work (the mechanics of working with words) earlier just because she was reading, her spelling faltered, too. When I brought the phonics work back in, her spelling improved. Maybe that's why the pp who noticed that R&S spelling (w/o the rest of the program) seemed to not work as well after a certain point? I haven't personally tried R&S spelling yet, but I did look at it and can see why MFW recommends it for 2nd grade *before* beginning Spelling Power -- It really reinforces the phonics (decoding) before the child "takes off" with spelling (encoding). They're opposite skills, so the child becomes a better speller (encoder) if he already has the decoding skills in place. I believe too many moms drop the phonics too soon and start spelling too soon, and that's why they have difficulties. Just being able to read words in context doesn't necessarily mean they've learned all the phonics skills they need.

(Disclaimer: I know the above doesn't necessarily apply to every child, but generally speaking, I think most moms would do well to reinforce working with words a little longer before doing "just" spelling. One thing I like about Charlotte Mason's methods, which MFW incorporates all the way through the curriculum, is the focus on accuracy. Copywork is a very beneficial tool for every child, regardless of reading or spelling ability. And think about it.... being able to work with words very well is an absolute necessity for translating and teaching Scripture. )

Now you know my philosophy on spelling. And all you wanted was the names of a few workbooks... LOL. But Lindy is right in saying to know what you want in a spelling program before choosing.

[mommy3]

I'm just curious -- is there a reason why MFW does not continue with the Rod and Staff Spelling for grades 3-8? Are there particular reasons for switching to Spelling Power?

[asheslawson]

I'm just curious -- is there a reason why MFW does not continue with the Rod and Staff Spelling for grades 3-8? Are there particular reasons for switching to Spelling Power?

I found a post by Lucy Robertson that I think answers your question - but of course - if you like Rod & Staff Spelling - it is fine to stick with it - I liked it and thought about staying with it - but I already had SP for my older son so I just continued with SP this year with my dd - instead of buying 3rd grade R&S. She loves SP - so I'm glad I didn't spend the money on something when I had SP on hand!

I'll copy & paste Lucy's post from and old thread titled as shown:

I am just chiming it to give a little clarification on why MFW has chosen to use Spelling by Sound in Structure for one year before moving to Spelling Power.

SBSS is a very light introduction to spelling with some review of phonics. Spelling Power is not recommended before 3rd grade. This is when we are beginning a formal approach to spelling. Spelling Power is our recommendation, but you may use any spelling program you choose with the curriculum.

Our First Grade program is a solid phonics program, but does not try to teach spelling directly while teaching reading. Because many children can not do both at the same time we are not expecting that all the phonics learned during first grade are being transferred to spelling. As children become more confident in reading it is then easier to begin formal instruction in spelling. The First Grade program includes simple spelling.

MFW incorporates copy work into each year's curriculum beginning with first grade and continues with this through our English recommendations (Primary and Intermediate Language Lessons). Each week the memory verse is used as copy work and dictation as well. Copy work is a great way to learn many language skills including spelling, naturally.

MFW is using both a natural and direct approach to teaching spelling. Again the program you use is your choice, but we recommend helping children to first have a firm foundation in phonics through leaning to read before beginning a formal spelling program.

Lastly, someone commented that Spelling Power took them to long. It should not take longer than 15-20 minutes, 5-7 minutes from the parent/teacher and about 10-15 more for kids to study the words they missed. Like it was mentioned above, using a timer can be helpful especially to keep from calling out words for more than 5 minutes each day. I used this program with 2 different kinds of spellers and both improved their spelling skills.

[zeo2ski]

Thanks I had this same question. My impression was that Spelling Power is MFW's choice for a spelling program, but they went looking for something else for the 2nd grade because SP is for 3rd and up. In other words the R&S is the "change" but it happens to come first.

[Mom2theteam]

Good question as I have been pondering this as well. We are moving to 3rd and we really like Rod & Staff spelling. I don't really seem to understand how Spelling Power works. I'm hoping to look at a copy of it at the convention when I look at ECC. But, right now, we are leaning toward sticking with Rod & Staff. That could change at any moment though. LOL!!

[Julie in MN]

Zeo is correct in that Spelling Power was MFW's spelling program of choice, and SBSS was added later. Spelling Power is efficient, in that students don't need to study the words they already know, they test until they uncover words they need to study. However, MFW users were reporting that their second graders cried because they "had to" get something wrong. They weren't ready to appreciate the streamlined approach, but instead wanted an approach that showed them success -- study, study, & get them all correct on the test!

I've read posts by some who continued SBSS for a while, but they always seem to not like it as well after 2nd grade. I don't have any details or personal experience, that's just a general impression I've gotten. My two homeschoolers actually didn't need spelling, although I used Spelling Power for progress testing.

Julie

[Cyndi (AZ)]

Note: Rod and Staff Spelling switches to cursive for 3rd grade, so your dc needs to be able to read cursive or will require help with each lesson. Also, the blanks change as if the child is able to write cursive in the workbook.

[4Truth]

Note: Rod and Staff Spelling switches to cursive for 3rd grade, so your dc needs to be able to read cursive or will require help with each lesson. Also, the blanks change as if the child is able to write cursive in the workbook.

This was the reason I opted not to go with R&S for spelling. My older two didn't use R&S (or SP) simply because we were already using something else for spelling when we found MFW, and it was working. But my youngest has LDs in the area of language skills, so the switch to cursive -- especially not being in the style that my dd was trying to learn -- was too confusing for her.

[thelapps]

I was taught with R & S spelling and enjoyed it. From my experience the lessons get longer and longer as you progress through the grades. Also it would cover some of the things that are scheduled in your language arts program with MFW as you study Greek and Latin Roots.

I think it would be overkill but maybe you have girls who, like me, enjoy filling out blanks. It would drive my sons bonkers I'm sure. A good spelling program if you are using all R & S curriculum. Probably not a good fit if you are following MFW's LA recommendations.