Combining Younger Sibs - Can we beef up & stay togeth

[Lucy]

Comparing high school level of independence, depth, etc

-- would it not work to finish out the five year cycle -- maybe beef it up a bit -- and then pick up hs when they are finished? Say in 10th grade, maybe?

The material in the high school is so much more in-depth that you would not really be keeping the family together too much since they are very independent in reading their own material. It it happens to work that would be great but otherwise as Crystal said it should not be the focus. The focus is as Crystal has mentioned academic readiness and high school level courses that will be credit worthy. Meaning that the courses meet a certain standard of hours on task per subject for credit.

To recap, the goal is no longer to keep him in the family cycle but to prepare him for college entrance as well as prepare him for college. Ask more if you need more!

Lucy

[cbollin]

-- would it not work to finish out the five year cycle -- maybe beef it up a bit -- and then pick up hs when they are finished? Say in 10th grade, maybe?

I’m always wanting to chime in on this stuff because I feel like I’m just in the learning stages of high school and it’s more fun to chit chat back and forth with some ideas in this learning stage. It helps me to think out loud with a discussion topic. Here’s my long winded opinion as someone who is currently using 1850-MOD (aka year 5) with a 6th grader and 3rd grader.

There is always the balance between "we can do whatever we want in our own homeschools to establish graduation requirements" and "this is the design of the program I'm using to accomplish those goals for my child". There are different types of diplomas to fit for different needs. And in all of those, there is the need for integrity in the descriptions of the course work.

Can a student study US history in 9th grade (as one of many subjects covered in 9th grade, of course) and then begin to use MFW’s high school in 10th grade? Yeah, probably. But I don't think you'd want to use 1850-Modern Times and just “beef it up” and call it high school US history. It would be a lot of work on you to get 1850-MOD to a full year of US history. 1850-MOD, aka year 5 of MFW “family cycle”, is not just US history. It is US history in the context of World History. It is not an in depth study that is of the same caliber that my state Standards of Learning calls US history for high school level. (it is meeting standards at 2nd-8th grade, but that's a rabbit trail on this discussion.) You would still most likely eventually need to have Government and/or Economics as well as an indepth study of US history. And the spines used in 1850-MOD are not easily used that way.

Sounds like a lot of work to me to make it work. So, let's rethink the approach on this. I think it would be more beneficial to just get a high school level US history text for that subject for that student and then use some fun parts from year 5 as "dessert" --- but not the main course.

Your 9th grader does not have to be fully isolated from the rest of the family while working independently. It’s similar in nature to how MFW recommends using K and 1st with K and 1st grade age students and let them join in the family activities from the 5 year program. A 9th grader, in my opinion, could join in some family activities from 1850-MOD so that your 9th grader isn’t off in isolation. That would be the case no matter what high school program the 9th grader is in (MFW's AH&L or make your own or whatever).

Some quick off the top of my head examples where a high schooler could be invited to join in with the rest of the family include: any and all of the cooking projects from the US history Cookbook that is part of 1850-MOD. Your high schooler probably should be included in the family prayer time and family style devotions that are part of 1850-MOD. And if you are anything like me, you’d want your 9th grader to finish up the state sheets and at least read the President’s cards that were started in EX1850. But, if you're anything like me, you'd make the high schooler work at a quicker pace and not be waiting until the younger kids did those state sheets/presidents sheets.

Another issue would be which high school year would you “leave out” in the case that your 9th grader doesn’t start with MFW high school. Just make sure as you plan for it that you are looking to provide the credits they need for graduation and college entrance requirements as a more priority issue rather than using chronological history as the driving issue in the decision.

Just one opinion.

-crystal

[Jenn in NC]

Okay... I think I hear what you are saying Crystal. IOW, at the high school level, material will be covered that has not been covered before. Differentiating this concept with the idea (this was my previous understanding) that we would just be covering the same material at a deeper level.

You know, it was really important to dh when we were just starting out with home schooling that we go with a program that was a little more globally minded than the average curriculum seems to be. That was one of the many reasons he (we) chose MFW. I suppose this shows my ignorance but it hadn't even occurred to me that there would come a time later to be more focused on American history/gov't/etc. Yes. I can see that.

Your 9th grader does not have to be fully isolated from the rest of the family while working independently. It’s similar in nature to how MFW recommends using K and 1st with K and 1st grade age students and let them join in the family activities from the 5 year program. A 9th grader, in my opinion, could join in some family activities from 1850-MOD so that your 9th grader isn’t off in isolation. That would be the case no matter what high school program the 9th grader is in (MFW's AH&L or make your own or whatever).

You are reading my mind now, aren't you. I admit that the main reason I have a problem with the "Now you are in hs so you do this other program over there by yourself" routine is because I really love having all the kids doing the same thing, just at different levels. It is really just an extension of the part of me that says I don't want any of them to grow up. I want to keep them little. Which is very sentimental but probably slightly neurotic. They will grow up whether I want them to or not. And if they didn't then at some point I am sure I would wish they would. ;) But that is another thread. In fact it is a whole other board.

So... I'm getting that you are saying it is just the other end of the spectrum from what I am already doing now. My 1st grader is not ready for CTG. But he wants to be with his brothers. So he joins in where he can and wants to, and he is actually learning a lot, but CTG is definitely not the focus of his education right now. And I would be remiss to make so. Because he has a first priority need right now to learn to be a fluent reader. And as his primary educator, it is my job to make sure I meet that priority for him.

Now we are just reversing that process for the ones who are getting older. Right?

[cbollin]

I think there is another part of MFW’s high school program that will help us to not lose connection with our oldest students while attending to the younger ones. It’s the weekly conference time. I think it is a great idea that MFW has to have that time scheduled in so that we remember to have a special time with our teenagers. Based on some ideas that some local friends gave me (as well as some things my MIL did with her sons), I’m hoping to be able to use that conference time for academic check in time AND for fellowship time with my high schoolers (well, future high schoolers, that is).

-crystal

[Jenn in NC]

Jenn,
I think as your kids get older, you will find them taking the lead in asking for independence. Don't worry that you will have to "force" it upon them. Just do it when they are ready.
Julie

Actually most of my kids are already convinced that they are quite capable of engaging in many adult-level activities without any significant bodily harm to themselves or others -- (read: Mom, I can drive the car without wrecking it! I know I can because, you see? My feet can touch the pedals!!... said with great enthusiasm, and with equally great disregard for the fact that they cannot see over the dash...)

So you see it is actually their mother (that would be me) who suffers from that classic neurosis that wants babies to stay babies ad infinitum. :)

But seriously, you are right that my landscape may look a whole lot different when I actually get there than it does now; maybe I am trying to plan too far in advance.

[Julie in MN]

Jenn,
I do know what you mean! My youngest sometimes thinks he can live on his own like older brother who is 23!

And I, with only one left in the nest, am equally reluctant to give up the wonderful closeness of homeschooling. For instance, I have little interest in signing ds up for lots of outside academic classes -- I want him homeschooled!

However, there is something different that happens as they reach around age 12. I am trying to put my finger on it, and maybe it is centered in a realization that there is more than one way to do something... that God created more than one kind of mom... that people make different choices and their lives take different courses... something like that. Not to get all philosophical on you, but I'm right in the middle of it here :o)

Julie

[4Truth]

Jenn,
However, there is something different that happens as they reach around age 12. I am trying to put my finger on it,

THAT is an understatement. It's called "Mom starts freaking out and doing all sorts of weird things that make no sense out of pure fear and non-understanding."

Donna, mom of a daughter who just turned 12...

[Lucy]

Lucy, does your 9th grader like the program? Does it work alot like the younger rotations, or is there more writing in response to the reading assignments. I have a friend trying to get me to switch, but I want to hang in there for MFW.

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:14 pm
My daughter does like the program. It has been a lot of reading but she has been able to handle it. There has only been one book that she really just did not like (hey that's part of school sometimes). They read the history for the day and there are review questions that they answer from the Notgrass readings daily. There are other books that they read as well to add to the Notgrass history. For bible she writes out answers to questions each day from the Old Testament Challenge book. There are literature questions and vocab. for the literature selections. After these selections are finished they write persuasive or comparison/contrast papers on a theme related to the literature they have read. They also have grammar lessons woven in as they look for ways to improve their writing. An example early on is making sure that each sentence has a subject. This one is very simple but they do become more difficult.

It also has a geography component which I like, as well as a detailed timeline with review information on the timeline. I will give a geography semester credit for the 3 or 4 years of geography that are in the program. This is what my state requires.

I like it because it is easy for her to follow and MFW style in the lesson plan. It is also a unit study of bible, history and literature which I hope helps it to stick better.

I looked briefly at another program this summer. It did not look as easy to follow. I do not think any program that I know of has a student read the entire old and new testament. Just something to think about. Just my opinion as I do not have any experience with this product.

Remember that the first year is still being piloted this year so the website will not give much information until MFW has made final decisions on exactly what they are using in the program.

Hope that helps a bit.
Lucy

[cbollin]

Well, this is my final frontier in decision making. I had been planning to use MFW for high school, but long story short we got a little off track with our plan and did not do that. So, my 15 yo son is currently using [another program's] rtr beefed up for high school. He likes it. It is going well overall, but I'm still entertaining the idea of making a switch to MFW. If we stayed with [our current program] - he would do early American history for his sophomore year (beefed up). IF we went with MFW he would do World History for his sophomore year. It would be a repeat for the first 17 weeks of the history (I think) , but with different materials.

It looks to me as if either way we would:
still do the same math
still do the same science
still do Latin 2
still do the same Literature - I had selected smarr's ( I think MFW uses Smarr's?)
Not sure about the grammar and writing?
So the big difference would be the history and notebooking piece and BIble....I think.

So, I'm looking to see if there are any who switched to MFW or who looked closely at the possibility and stayed with MFW. I just need to hear some other insights besides my own observations.

As always I'm grateful for those of you who take the time to ponder with me.

MFW and SMARR - that is only in AHL, and it is an MFW edition of a Smarr guide. The lit/comp supplement in AHL comes from Smarr, with some changes. It's for 3 books in AHL, not used for all years, or all books.

Plan it out in terms of graduation requirements from your homeschool, and/or meeting needs of college entrance. I have a friend who is almost 50 years old, who went to many public schools in his life. military family and moved a lot! He loves History, and yet in his many high schools, got to repeat topics and all of that. Still loves history. Professional truck driver.


I know I appreciate having it all planned for me so that my daughter can do her high school work without it being a beef up from younger materials. Maybe some of her insights on "younger program" in jr. high vs. "high school in high school" would help. Last night I had her write something about that. it's on this thread
http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 394#p84905

still thinking with you
-crystal

[Julie in MN]

What is the literature in WHL? Is it written by MFW or another program?

WHL literature is a combination of some of the Notgrass assignments, some of the British Literature assignments, and some assignments in the manual (Marie Hazell assignments ). At least that's how it looks so far for us.
WHL writing goes through the Writers Inc book, plus again some assignments in the manual. The biggest writing project is a research assignment for about 8 weeks.

I haven't seen the program you're using, but most of the time when I read about "beefing up a younger program," I see a lot of nice stories in the historical fiction category, but don't see a lot of the important works that are studied in MFW. I think students can certainly learn from both, but I keep pushing my son to be exposed to a wider range and push himself to master a few harder things. I keep telling him that he needs to get there by the time he graduates, in order to participate in the great conversation that is educated adults. I like that MFW high school sticks to the important things but also doesn't overdo it, leaving a little room for fun reading on the side -- and this is free choice not assigned, because every student enjoys different kinds of things there.

Hope that relates somewhat, since as I said I haven't seen the program you're using. I don't think it was around when I was homeschooling my older dd in high school, when I tried almost everything on the market

Julie

[mandolin]

I really liked [another program] for many years, but with more children I feel like MFW's heart and good plans won out. It was always between the two programs for me! I love MFW's emphasis on missions and Bible activities throughout all their programs. I am looking forward to the WHL next year with two of my sons! I just don't have the time with 5 to plan and beef up as I used to! Now it's MFW all the way and I am so pleased with all of what we're doing. The boys are really enjoying what we've already started from my littles on up.

[deltagal]

Julie, You've articulated well the challenge. You do need to incorporate higher-level works to make it high-school worthy and by the time you're done doing that you find yourself wondering if maybe you shouldn't have just gone with a "true" high-school level program to begin with. One of the tremendous appeals of [what we are using] is that it is very finely tuned with a steady progression of skill development for a student that is quite nice, but if you have to take it apart to work in higher-levels then you lose the "finely tuned" piece that was so appealing. Make sense?!

with more children I feel like MFW's heart and good plans won out.

I think that's what I'm feeling. Both are EXCELLENT programs, but MFW has a core value that I resonate with and that the overall plan speaks to that. I'm still on the fence, but leaning more and more to WHL for my sophomore. I know I will not go wrong either way. Looking forward to more thoughts out there.... This is very helpful. I'm grateful.

[Julie in MN]

One of the tremendous appeals of [what we are using] is that it is very finely tuned with a steady progression of skill development for a student that is quite nice, but if you have to take it apart to work in higher-levels then you lose the "finely tuned" piece that was so appealing. Make sense?!

I'm not completely sure that MFW doesn't do this, as well. Although, it may be less obvious. And in MFW, it may be more flexible since kids really are very different. (e.g. I homeschooled an older dd who needed to be prodded and pried into being more creative and using her own ideas, and I have a youngest son who is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy toooooo creative and needs some facts in there instead of his own ideas all the time.)

I've only done AHL & WHL, but MFW high school builds the basic format of the argumentative essay skill throughout 9th, then expands step-by-step to cover almost all other writing skills in 10th (students write a research paper, a play, poetry, a speech, letter to the editor, etc), all of which require the skills of knowing what you want to say and organizing how you say it, which were learned all year in AHL. Reading is varied in 9th with a few advanced selections mixed in with easier and leaving open some optional slots. Then reading gets more streamlined in 10th to cover more types of literature and poetry with a few more advanced books and less time for optional reading. MFW introduces a history textbook in 9th, and becomes more serious in 10th (with unit tests about every two weeks), and moves to small print in 11th I'm seeing a lot of careful progression of skills. And of course MFW starts at the beginning of Bible and moves forward in a logical progression, which is line by line

Anyways, it might not look as workbooky and it might not be as up-front about the fine tuning, but Marie Hazell is well trained in curriculum planning and I think the skills emerge in logical sequence, with wiggle room for the differences in children, ages, and needs.
Julie

[cbollin]

Well, we've previewed WHL. IT looks like a GREAT program, but in reality it is too much of a repeat of what we've done - history wise. The part that looks really great and new to us are the Bible study and the interwoven Bible Study pieces in the Notgrass text, along with some of the literature. And we really don't need a world history credit. We've earned one this year. Now that I've got it all here to look at - something about only doing a portion of it, is a bit anxiety producing (maybe overwhelming is a better description) for me personally. So, back to the drawing board.

I'm just mulling over now whether I should order the Early American History to preview to use with a high school sophomore.

I'd probably try to do that if it were me. Then, just adjust for any writing or literature analysis needs. or adjust as needed.

hmm... that would summer skills, or grab something like Writer's Inc as a reference for when needed.
that or a crazy crazy idea.... build a year! (doesn't that sound overwhelming?/anxiety eek.)
do the WHL for Bible credit
do "geography" for your social studies - map work from WHL, plus ideas out of ECC or other textbook for geography, and then a special unit to research on a topic in world history of interest to your son
use WHL for Literature.?

plan for the 4 year planning it out. fill in what's needed. and think "if we do US 1 as 10th grade, US 2 in 11th, then. hmm.. what things in 12th to individualize?"
lots of good options.

-crystal

[Julie in MN]

I'm seeing the same 2 options as Crystal -

1. Move forward a year, if you feel he's ready for a more advanced textbook and etc.,

2. Or, take what you have and expand on some things, such as the geography Crystal mentioned, or maybe more time in the World Wars, or the Middle Ages, or the Reformation, or Shakespeare, or read the Old Testament plus the NT... Sometimes at my house, we do Teaching Company lectures instead of a Notgrass Bible lesson or something like that, so I know there's a lot out there one could add. The problem is that adding is extra work, both in planning and in grading. Depends on whether you *enjoy* getting a chance to fit those extras in, or really NOT?!

Glad you have the WHL set there to help you think this over,

Julie

[deltagal]

I've been praying about it and living with the curriculum this weekend. I'm mulling over these ideas:

It looks as if Unit 20 of the WHL guide is new history material. The literature and Bible other than the Shakespeare play are for the most part "new." I can sub in another Shakespeare play. We just finished an in-depth research paper. I'm uncertain if we need to start a new semester off with another research paper. WE could read the literature recommended and simply do essays instead of research? We do have some history materials we were going to utilize this year, but didn't get to. We could use those the first 19 weeks...or would that be cumbersome? IF we did this we could get the full credit in all subjects.

OR

we could begin at Unit 20 across the board earn a .5 credit in all 3 subject areas and then.... Oh, dear. just typing it overwhelms me again.
But I think the reason I keep getting pulled back to this is I really like the MFW literature/ bible piece. The history piece I'm neutral on. Oddly enough, [our current] living-history piece is what is so strong.

Still praying and pondering. Thank you for listening.

A little bit more rambling here - we earned a world history credit this year, BUT in the unlikely event my ds should desire to go to a formal school setting in his junior and senior years holding off on Am. history would keep him in sync with what the schools would likely be doing.

[Joy1139]

MFW has always been my Plan for HS. I did waiver on that for some time because we could beef up and it would be fine. But, I've put alot of thought and prayer into it and we are definitely going with MFW for HS.

I like the scope and sequence. I like the works that have been chosen for the structured readings. I like that it seems (appears) to have a manageable amount of reading that will still leave him a little wiggle room to add books for his own free reading. I especially like that he will be reading so much of the actual Bible. I am really relieved that MFW integrates writing so well throughout the HS years. He will benefit greatly from the writing instruction.

He wants to study the Modern Times, a period that we have barely covered. I think it's an important time to touch on before HS. So, he'll be using MFW next year for 1850 to Modern Times. I want to streamline history some. I want him to read more classics and not so much history. I think he's at an age where he can make some decisions for himself and he's eager to get into this time period. He also wants to study current events. That will be new for him too. We don't even let him watch the news!! I'm going to get him a subscription to WORLD magazine next year.

I've already ordered the TM. It should be here on Tuesday. I can't wait to see it! Just thought I'd share

Such great thoughts. And very articulate. I am so grateful for you sharing this. The wiggle room and manageability of MFW is a REAL PLUS.

Well, I appreciate your sharing! It has helped me to think about the impact of RTR vs. MFW Modern Times for next year. I think RTR would steal too much thunder from MFW World History. He's already covered the Middle Ages anyways. The years are coming too quickly now and it feels like we will be there (10th grade!!!) before I know it.
Yes. That's my issue...thunder stealing ; )[/quote]

[deltagal]

I've been mulling over all the good thoughts from others on this thread. And I think a possibility is coming together. We only have 3-weeks left this spring for our normal school routine, then we have a host of other things happening which will require a long break. We'll pick back up in August. My ds has finished all his subject areas, except his current history. I think we'll begin WHL at week 1 using it as is but including the living-history books we already have on hand but have not read to round-out WHL. I'm a little reticent to start taking a well-defined program a part. There's a definite overlap, but MFW's approach is unique and ultimately - I'm striving for balance and a program that is wholistically more on his level! I could also have my son track the hours, to make sure he's not spending too much time on history ; )

If he begins to feel that it really is too redundant then we can sub in more of his current unfinished history. Or?

At the end of WHL we'll be in a good position for my son to offer a great deal of input to how he would like to finish-out the remaining 2-years of High School. I really want him to be able to have more input on his approach for his Junior and Senior years. It will also give him flexibility if he wants to join in with others locally, since the sequence in our area for most is American History Jr. and Sr. years. I'll be interested in hearing his overall thoughts. He's very articulate and observant.

Postby deltagal » Tue May 15, 2012 10:05 am
We have a plan! We are definitely going to use the Literature plan from WHL, except the research paper. I began to piece things together over the weekend and it all fell into place. I was concerned that it would be too disjointed if I pulled it out, but it's going to work fine. This is very exciting! We are going to use a different plan for history, but he'll use the WHL Bible Reading plan, as well. So, this takes us full circle back to Carrie and Julie's ideas it just took a while for it to simmer on the stove. Yippee! I'm very excited. It's going to be a great Sophomore year. Thank you MFW.

[DS4home]

I have been doing MFW for the past few years and we are loving it and I would love to continue. I started with ECC, and then skipped to Exploration and Modern times because of where we were in the history cycle when we started. I really would like to go back to the beginning and start the cycle from Ancient times next year which works whether I go back and do CTG or the High school one. Repeating is not an option at this point. I sold them when I was done since I wasn't expecting to need to use them again.

My problem is that my daughter is going to be in 9th grade next year, and she is definitely ready for the high school courses that MFW offers. My son, however is in the 7th grade, and struggles in some areas. I have been doing them together so far, and so far that has worked really well, and I definitely can't afford to buy two programs, so what do I do? Do I stay on the younger cycle and try to find things to supplement for my daughter, or do I switch to the high school cycle, and lighten things up for the younger one?

I would definitely not hold your 9th grader back! Likewise, I would never advise a 7th grader to use a high school level curriculum. It would just be way too much for him, and difficult to try to tweak.

It is always so hard to see our oldest move on to the more independent work of high school when they've been part of the family group learning all these years! I struggled some with that too. I somehow wanted to make it work that we were still all learning the same things...then I just had to let it go. High school has become sort of a "right of passage" in our house now. The younger kids were awed by seeing the first high schooler have her own manual to check off! Such adult responsibility!! And it has been OK. I haven't lost my job, I keep teaching the cycle years to whoever is still in that range... and my high schoolers do their work... and we are still family. I don't know why I am rambling about this? I think I got off track from your question!

Anyway, just trying to get the conversation started.
Dawn

[Julie in MN]

I'm wondering if anyone has successfully used 1850-Modern Times with a 9th Grader and what needed to be added to make it compatible with High School Credits. I have a 14 year old and a 10 year old and would like to do one level if possible. This is our first year with MFW.
Donna

Hi Donna,
Welcome to the board!

I thought I'd keep you company while you wait to see if anyone has direct experience. So, I'll just share a few thoughts.

First, I'll say that I worked at the MFW convention booth in Minnesota for some 10 years and I talked to a lot of parents every April. I found that folks who thought their high schoolers would want to keep the family learning going often found that their high schoolers "outgrew" them once they reached a certain age. The kids often no longer wanted to be held back with the younger siblings.

And another thing is that high school isn't just "more" but it's different. The "Declare" stage of learning (also called the Rhetoric stage) has to do with kids evaluating what they learn, not just accepting what mom says any more. Suddenly they are reading the Bible and history and such in order to own their views on them, and they must learn to argue through their reasoning successfully. Of course, everything doesn't change overnight, but they are heading on a different trajectory than before.

So I'm just sending out a vote to consider that you might be seeing some big changes in the near future. Even if you make plans to stay together, you might also want a Plan B - just in case you notice that separate programs suddenly seem to fit.

Meanwhile, I do agree that anything can be adapted. But it can be a lot of work. Before I used MFW for high school, I found it really hard to know "how much." What is a day's worth of work? Is my child slacking or am I overworking her? MFW high school has been tested on real kids until a standard body of work has been laid out for a typical high schooler, and that was a huge help to me.

Best wishes on your big decisions as you jump into high school.
Julie

[manyblessings]

I am also thinking that you might actually find it works more smoothly to put them in separate programs, in which case I would vote for Exploring Countries and Cultures for the 10 year old and Ancient History & Literature for the 14 year old, rather than trying to adapt a younger program for your older child.