hsm wrote:I wasn't sure how to title my subject line as I have a few related questions. My 6th grader is doing a research project for our homeschool group as well as 4H. She is doing her research paper/project on Jamaica so that she can combine her 4H intercultural project and use it for a country report for ECC as well as her HS group project.
She has never done a research paper before. We are not there yet. She is working through Writing Strands level 3. She does have experience with a 5 paragraph paper through public school, but this was very basic bare bones instruction. The guidelines for the hs group project are pretty flexible. They are leaving it up to the parent to set reasonable guidelines. The main requirement is a bibliography with the MLA works cited format. She is also using ILL and with this and in the past, I have noticed she basically copies and pastes from sources. This is only because she had never been told she can't do this. I explained this to her when I noticed and she had no idea. I had her correct the writing and she pretty much just re-arranged words.
I thought it might not be a big deal to just add that to their 4H projects but now I am getting worried. Maybe they aren't ready for this yet. I wonder if should not have them do this until we are at that point in our writing instruction. If you think that is the case, tell me that too. The rest of the experience seems great to me. They also have to give a short oral presentation about their project and present a project board. Those two aspects are fine for them because they already have been doing it for 4H. Sorry for the long rambling post. Help?

Hi Lori,
You know I always like to chime in on writing threads. However, I hope my (usually long) replies don't intimidate others from chiming in as well. I like group conversations
hsm wrote:1. What do you consider reasonable length and quality of paper for 6th grader with this level of writing experience?
My youngest did the EX1850 State Report around 6th grade or early 7th. To me, it was basically a series of paragraphs. He had a paragraph about the flag, one about the seal, one about tourist sites, etc etc.
I did have him choose one area to look more like a "report" than just a paragraph. He chose the "history" part of the state report. This history portion was not high school level writing, but it was a chance to work on organizing his writing in a logical sequence, balancing his writing so he had a similar amount of information on all of his topics, and bringing some supporting details into his writing.
His paper ended up being a lot of pages but not a lot of writing, if that makes sense. Every page had a large picture or a graph type of thing, which bulked it up. He also had a title page and a bibliography for the whole paper, but his references weren't standard format they were his own style. He did include every little source, even the MFW state page on Minnesota LOL.
hsm wrote:My 3rd grader is also doing a project. How much writing would you expect from her? She is doing her paper/project on rabbit care.
When youngest was about 3rd grade, we grouped several PLL lessons together for a report on his cat. He used Power Point and took photos of different parts of his cat.
I looked at his writing then as more a series of sentences. There was a sentence (or 2) about the cat's paws, her fur, her activities, etc. The photos helped connect the sentences together, so not sure how that would look in a text-only report, but the idea is just that the paper was a sequence of sentences more than developed paragraphs.
hsm wrote:2. How do I teach her how to write a research paper before we are there in our curriculum? I don't expect perfection at this point, just an introduction, I guess. A second question here would be in regards to bibliography cards during research. Have you used this method? I was thinking to have her take notes on index cards with the source listed on the card as well. But then....see next question.
You could use the EX1850 state report guide, which has an intro to the index card method, etc. There is also a similar project in WHL (10th grade high school), so it won't be the last opportunity.
To be very honest, my son has taken 7 college classes now and has not used the index card method at all. I don't really like the new ways, but now our librarians even send kids straight to the computer to do their research. My son had to specifically tell one librarian that he thought his mom wanted him to come out of the library with a book in his hand LOL. I do agree, though, that internet makes research easier with the copy-paste feature. And the material on the internet now is not just personal opinions any more; now, most scholarly journals and legit authors can be found on various websites, as well. So anyways, although I introduced my ds to the index card method twice, I didn't push it and he hasn't gone on to use it. I always tell him, though, that we each must find the study methods that work for ourselves.
hsm wrote:3. How do you teach what plagiarism is and how to avoid it? I had a professor in college that said we would be reported if we didn't cite even an idea or thought that was not ours originally.
This sounds similar to the orientations my son received at the 2 colleges he has attended during high school. Plagiarism is a huge deal in colleges and some professors run papers through 2-3 computer programs to check on it, even in Christian colleges. It's great you are teaching your child about this now.
As for how to tell about vague ideas, one of the colleges said that if you got an idea that did not come from inside your brain, even if it came from a conversation with your mom, then you should credit your mom. This made sense to me - just write your paper, and then make note of any time that you got an idea from outside your own brain and add it as a reference. The side benefit to this habit is that often college professors *require* you to have a lot of different sources, so remembering all these sources can actually help you build your "works cited" page effortlessly. Even the Bible or a TV show can be in your list of sources, and a large number of sources will make your work appear well researched!
Each of my 3 kids has been a completely different writer, and I have never wanted to change their "voice" so much as to help them use that voice so that others could understand their message. Anyways, I do have one child similar to your dd. My middle dd is my "encyclopedia quoter." Deep down, I think she felt she must be "correct" and that being correct couldn't possibly come from her own brain; good info had to be memorized accurately from a text.
This student was a headache until I had my youngest, and he was most comfortable just making stuff up, so then I went back to appreciating my encyclopedia quoter far more LOL
Anyways, I think a report is a difficult setting for breaking out of this mindset. Off the top of my head, just working on citing her sources may be the most productive way for her to deal with a "report."
Fortunately, very little college and even workplace writing is in the form of a "report." Occasionally a "summary" might be required, and then your dd's method of basically quoting various sources may work fine, as long as she cites her sources.
However, the vast majority of writing needs to have something original to say - a writer researches an issue, surveys various sources, and then comes to her own conclusion and tries to convince the reader why she is correct. That will be where your dd really gets pushed out of her comfort zone. I tell my kids that if I want to know what the encyclopedia says, I will read the encyclopedia. I am reading their writing to see what new light THEY will shed on the topic, what conclusions THEY draw from all the confusing ideas out there. Again your dd may have lots of quotes, but when she gets to high school essay writing, she will be forced to learn how to state her own case. Fortunately, MFW high school starts out gently in 9th grade and pulls the student up to this level. It isn't expected in 6th grade.
Hoping there is some reassurance and maybe a random helpful idea in there,
Julie