Bible Notebook - How much to help with Spelling

[cbollin]

MFW1 story summary struggles in Bible Notebook

Hello! I am here with yet another question for veteran MFW1 moms. (and dads :) My daughter (6.5) loves her schoolwork. She's doing a great job at her reading. She wants to read her Bible Reader at night and to her grandparents, her dad, and basically whoever will sit still long enough to listen.

She REALLY doesn't want to try and spell her words for her Bible summary sentence on her own. At this point, does she HAVE to attempt to invent spell and write on her own? It the stress worth it, or would it be just as effective to let her copy her own words that I've written down for her? At least until the idea of writing on her own doesn't panic her?

Oh the joys of raising a child just like me....who really wants to do everything successfully the first time. :)
Annie

I did it like that for a long time [copy her own words]. Still do. I hope it's ok.

One of the things that *I* would occasionally do would be to make a mistake while writing and just correct it a few minutes later. Or I would "talk to myself out loud" while writing and say things like "I think it's spelled like this. I'll check later." I never made a big deal out of it, but they saw that lesson in action. Or we'd sound out words together so that is was a process skill being taught, not a perfection to attain.

Another technique that I used with the notebook was to help my child pick out a sentence from the Bible reader and let her copy her favorite sentence.

I don't let spelling become a block to the writing process and some errors I choose to overlook at certain times. Copywork is a different story.
-crystal

[LizCT]

When I was fretting about my then 1st grade dd's spelling (or lack thereof) during MFW 1st grade, the advice I received from David Hazell was that kids need time to absorb the correct spelling that they are seeing in their reading and learning in the phonics lessons. I backed off on the spelling last year, and now my daughter is taking off with her spelling lessons - it worked out great for us to back off last year.

Liz in CT

[TurnOurHearts]

Oh Annie! I could've written what you wrote 2 years ago! My son, ever the perfectionist...

I did just as you (and Crystal) are. I would have him tell me what happened. I then "modeled" finding the summary/main idea. After I wrote it down, he copied it. Eventually, he started saying, "Let me do it, Mommy." Ahhh...music to the ears! I still would spell a word for him if he asked, and I still do.

My daughter, on the other hand, LOVES to sound things out and gets frustrated when my son tries to tell her the correct way to spell! Ha! Gotta love these precious little individuals!! ;)

[705emily]

I just finished listening to the "Learning to Read" CD (another very helpful one...I always feel like I understand the philosophy of MFW better after each CD). David Hazell mentioned that in 1st grade there is no need to correct spelling on the bible story summaries. I had no idea!!! Here I've been having her narrate, i write them, and then she must copy them perfectly. Have I been working on the wrong skills?

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:02 pm

I have my first grader write her summary on a white board. (She really likes doing that--much more than doing it on paper!!) Then we look at it together go over any incorrect punctuation or spelling--which we do correct. Then she copies it neatly into the Bible notebook.

I'm not sure that's the "correct" way--but it works for us, and I see her skills improving.

Irmi Gaut

[Poohbee]

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:54 am

I, also, allow my dd to write her first draft of her sentence on a white board. We correct the spelling of some words, but not every word, that she spells on her own. The most important thing at this stage, I think, is encouraging them to write on their own. You want a 1st grader to use "invented spellings." It is important for a child of this age to spell words the way they sound to her (or him).

When we first started doing sentences for Bible Notebook, I let my dd dictate her sentence, I wrote it on a white board, and then she copied it into her notebook, much like you are doing. We did that for a couple of weeks.

Now, I ask her to dictate her sentence. I help her remember it, and then she writes it on a white board. After she has written her sentence, we look at it together to be sure she has a capital letter at the beginning and a period at the end. I am very pleased when she has written words the way they sound to her, and if I can read them and understand what they are, I do not correct her spellings.

However, for some words, we do correct the spelling. For example, when writing about Samson, she spelled the word hair "her." That one I helped her correct, because when she is reading her own writing later, I thought it might confuse her to read the word "her" when she meant to write "hair." But, when she wrote the word "mean" as "mene," I left that one alone. I am proud that she is taking a rule we learned (an "e" at the end of the word usually makes the first vowel long), and using it in her writing.

It's not wrong what you are doing, RB. It is a good way to start out. But, you should gradually encourage your child to write a sentence on her own, and help her correct only some of the words, but not all of them. Invented spellings are good at this stage, and it will not harm your dd as she is learning to write. She will not always stick with her invented spellings. She will eventually learn and internalize the correct ways to spell the words. But for her to spell on her own and not be corrected all of the time is a very good thing.

I don't think the Bible Notebook is intended to be copywork. That is what the Proverb is for. The Bible Notebook helps the child learn to construct a story summary and then begin to use the writing process (including drafting, editing, etc.) on his or her own.

[kellybell]

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:03 am

My (very independent and hates to be corrected) just-turned-7 dd doesn't like being corrected so I save the correction for when she really needs it or for things that she's consistently messed up (after a few Christmas cards, I just had to teach her the right way to spell THAK YOU). So, for Bible Notebook, I tell her she has to use her own sentences, but that she can use the Bible Reader as a spelling source.

However, I think we'll try the white board method again (it flopped a few months ago -- we used blank paper instead the board) since she's not putting much effort into these sentences.

It's good to see how others are doing this.

[MJ in IL]

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:30 am

I haven't heard that particular teaching from David so I'm not sure if my own thoughts line up with their ideas here but...

What are you goals for that day? What is your time frame? What are your child's strengths/weaknesses? What is his personality?

I've been all over the board on this one. When my younger ds did 1st:
- He wrote his own summaries complete with wildly inventive spelling and grammar
- I wrote his story in the book for him with him dictating to me- (especially if he had spent a long time with his drawing)
- He wrote a "rough" and then "final" copy for the book
- A couple of times he had more of a cartoon-type picture with conversation bubbles, so I had him answer a couple of questions to summarize the story.

I figure my focus one day might be the art, another LA, another day getting at his creativity in writing, another simply good comprehension of the story.

Our 1st Bible notebooks are treasures! We love to go back and look at them! They love to read them to their little sister!

[Lucy]

But, you should gradually encourage your child to write a sentence on her own, and help her correct only some of the words, but not all of them. Invented spellings are good at this stage, and it will not harm your dd as she is learning to write. She will not always stick with her invented spellings. She will eventually learn and internalize the correct ways to spell the words. But for her to spell on her own and not be corrected all of the time is a very good thing.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008
I think the above is what is at the heart of what you heard on the tape.

From my own experience, having over-corrected and having a child edit and recopy at this stage can keep them from wanting to write. I did this with my daughter(my first of course) and so there is a balance between correction and just biting our tongues and letting it go for the sake of encouraging children to just write at this stage. All kids are different and will withstand a certain amount of correction ranging from none to everything. At this stage the point is getting them to transfer their thoughts from their head to the paper. This is challenging, the last frontier of Lang. Arts and something that will be worked on for years. For some this is natural and for others it will take more time.

Dictating is a different process than from your head to the paper directly. You may not see as much writing at first. I think for some kids sitting with them while they are writing can be very helpful but for some it may stifle them. Some kids need to tell you what they will write and then write it. This is fine. They should have already narrated the bible story to you(retelling the day's story both in the morning and after the bible reader) Also teach self-editing when she has complete her sentence(s) by having her read back to you aloud what she has written. If she can read it and does not catch a mistake I would think hard about correcting it. In the early stages I would not even correct capitals and periods. Later you may want to ask her to check for those.

The time to focus on and teach mechanics in the early years is during copy work done through the Proverbs each week in first grade. At this time you can even remind them that when they write sentences in their notebook they too should have capitals and periods. As the year progresses you may want to give a gentle reminder before they begin writing.

I hope this help you see the purpose of the bible notebook and that of copy work. Both are very important but have different goals.

What day are you on? I would just start now letting your daughter write in the notebook herself doing her very best. You will have to decide how much correcting she can handle. You have not messed up and had a wasted year because you have been doing it differently, but the goal is to get your first grader writing sentences on her own.

Peace,
Lucy

[TriciaMR]

I have a question. I know the manual says that we are to allow the child to attempt to spell the words on their own so they can practice trying to sound out phonetically in order to spell them (not to correct them every time they mis-spell). However - my dd always asks me how to spell it. I always tell her to sound it out...and she does, but not always the correct spelling. However - she is still using a rule that would work...for example -

Today - she wanted to spell "touched" and wrote "tucht", "cloak" became "cloke", & "healed" became "heeled".

She wants to spell it correctly, and asks me before writing it down if she sounded it out correctly. I tell her that she did, but that she needs to try another sound that makes the same sound. Most of the time, she'll figure it out on her own. For instance, when I told her "cloke" is a good try, but I wanted her to try another letter combination that would work, she said "Oh, it is o-a!".

I tell her that the idea is for her to try to do it on her own. She is fine with that, but if she isn't sure she wants to confirm with me first (although a few, she spells wrong, and never asks, such as she spelled "this" as "thes" today.

Ok...so my question is - when she asks for confirmation, do I tell her when she is right as long as she is sounding it out on her own?

My personal opinion: I don't let my kids make up spelling. If they ask me how to spell a word, I tell them. Because, with my kids, if they spell it wrong they will remember it wrong and it takes forever for 2 of my kids to undo a wrong spelling.

But, I do like your way of telling her to think of another way of spelling the same sound - like you did for cloak. That was excellent! I always tell my kids when they've spelled something right or wrong when they ask (and often when they don't, too).

-Trish

[asheslawson]

Thanks Trish...that's what I was concerned about is her learning it wrong - and then having to re-learn the correct spelling. I just thought I'd check and see what others were doing since it said something about let them wing it a bit on the notebook once they get toward the end of the year. I may need to flip back & re-read that part of the manual - I may not be remembering exactly how they recommended this be done with the child. Thanks for your help though - because my concern is about her learning the wrong spelling. My boys are strong readers and spellers, and she just struggles with it a bit more than they did. Always appreciate knowing how other mom's teach certain things! ashley

[cbollin]

With my oldest (high school age currently), it was just like Trish described. My oldest tries to spell something... picks wrong way to spell the sound... has to pick from a list of possible words via spell check.

middle gal (jr. high age) - tries to sound it out, tries a possible correct spelling of that sound, takes a look back and says "uh.. that looks wrong" and tries the other way. If she is totally unsure on spelling, she asks and I don't play the "sound it out honey and just guess" game... instead, I help. I ask her where she is stuck.. she starts off the letters, I fill in the correct, then she finishes. I might remind her about a special rule that should be applied and see if she can figure it out, but I help. There's a balance on it.... from one end "tell" to "guess"... I like the middle point between them when possible, and then err on the side of tell and copy correctly when needed.

I might go back and re-read what she says in the 1st grade manual... I know in dictation in PLL notes, in other manuals, mfw recommends studying spelling words for dictation just prior to starting the lesson. Study it, practice it a few times.
I tend to help on that situations too. We'll study, practice and have it as a word bank to look at if needed when we get to that word.

I wonder if the idea marie tries to give with notebooking is to let them get their ideas down without getting bogged down on it being a perfect first try. Things can be edited as needed. But ideas can be lost.

-crystal

[asheslawson]

I wonder if the idea marie tries to give with notebooking is to let them get their ideas down without getting bogged down on it being a perfect first try. Things can be edited as needed. But ideas can be lost.

Yes...that sounds like that is really what it said - I just couldn't remember for sure and my grandbaby has been over 1/2 the week so I have not had a minute to spend any time researching. We barely got school work and dishes done this week...phew!! She's precious - but 3 month old babies are a lot of work!

That is, I believe, about what I remember reading as Marie's suggestion - and I have suggested that my daughter spend more time just writing her story and not be overly worried about the spellings, but she refuses...she wants to double check her spelling if she doesn't think it's right.

On the plus side...she has started to write her stories in, what she perceives to be, poems. It is really cute because the last few stories have opened up with the line reading "Thes is a poem". I think it's so funny that her first line of the poem is telling the reader that they are reading a poem!! I just love 7 year olds!! So cute!

Just for fun...I'm going to put one of her 'story-poems' here - this one makes me laugh because she is conversing with someone in her poem, although she never tells me who she is conversing with...but the person feels witty and suggests Jesus has no power over glue. However, my little poet corrects the responder and says actually, He does! Where she pulled that example from, I do not know, but the poem was written after we read about Jesus commanding the waves to calm down! She also listened, apparently, when I recently was reminding her older brother about how to place quotation marks, because before she wrote it, she asked if "those little marks that show what someone says" go after the words and in front of them! Wow, if she learns everything from what I teach him now, then she and I can just take sign up for a fun class together when she is his age, right!!??!! This story she wrote freely and did not ask me to help her correct her words...so I left her mis-spelled words as she wrote them.

"Thes is a poem. Jesus has all the power, even the waves obey him! Everything obeys him.
"But not glue."
"Yes, acshly, yes."
"I dedent no that."
"Well, now you no. Good-bye." "

[Yodergoat]

"Thes is a poem. Jesus has all the power, even the waves obey him! Everything obeys him.
"But not glue."
"Yes, acshly, yes."
"I dedent no that."
"Well, now you no. Good-bye." "

I love this and think it's great! Even glue obeys our Lord! I like the introduction of "this is a poem," it reminds me of the little sub-headings before some of the Psalms... you know, "A song. A psalm of David."

[Erna]

My question is about spelling for the Bible notebook. Gail is about to start writing her own sentences for the notebook. I read the thread about this [above]. In the thread, most people did as the curriculum suggests... allowing a child to write the sentence and not correcting all the spelling errors. It was said that a child should use invented spelling, and that the child would not stick with the invented spelling.

I understand the idea behind allowing a child to invent spelling so as not to stifle his or her writing, but I have a fear about allowing my daughter to do this. When she writes something, she tends to remember it. She has always been a good writer and a very tactile learner, and it's easy for her to commit a word she has written to memory in the same way that she can remember how to draw a dog or a horse. It doesn't mean she can actually read it later... ... but she can write it. I'm the same way in that if I write or dial a phone number or write down a Bible reference, I can usually recall it. The connection between the hand and the brain is strong for me and for my daughter!

So, for a child like her who commits the written word to memory, is it wise in her case to allow her to use invented spellings? As I mentioned in the other thread about her reading, she is a perfectionist and it would also just bother her to know she wrote something incorrectly. When she does try to spell a word on her own, she knows it's wrong when she tries to re-read it. Usually this is because her invented spelling lacks many of the sounds. "House" becomes "hies" (I just asked her how she'd spell "house"). She does well with spelling when it's guided, such as if I remind her she needs a vowel in the word, that there is a /o/ sound. But on her own it is sometimes undecipherable and she is never happy about it because she knows it's wrong. She would be embarrassed to show her Bible notebook to anyone if she had her invented spellings in it. She said that she wants my help to learn to spell correctly... and she takes such correction well and with a good attitude and is satisfied in the end.She is actually relieved to get help with spelling and it is not something she even remotely wants to do herself. Even if I help her spell words, she still considers them to be "her" words and is proud in the end of something she has written. And she is still creative.

I was wondering if I should have her type the sentences on the computer (she likes to type) and then we could work on spelling, then have her copy her corrected sentence into her book? I really don't think it will stifle her creativity in coming up with the sentences (she has no problem doing that!), and can help teach her the spelling rules as we go.... all without her ever having to actually write a wrong spelling and thus begin to commit it to memory. Not to mention it would be some typing practice.

I'm just scared to let her invent spelling and then memorize it because she wrote it, or to make her keepsake Bible notebook something she is embarrassed to look through or show.

I have my daughter dictate her sentence to me. I then write it down for her to copy. She is not the strongest reader or writer but she is growing in her skills. I did this with my oldest too until she wanted to write on her own in 1st. I didn't correct every single thing and she generally asked me about things she wasn't sure about spelling.

[Mom2theteam]

Our children have so much in common. I didn't respond on your reading thread simply because of time, but my son is the same way.

We are about to hit this as well and I am not inclined to not correct his spelling. I really struggle with spelling and always have. If I write it wrong, it's in my head that way. When I was in school, the best way for me to learn my spelling words (for spelling tests) was to write the word over and over and over. It wouldn't be good for me to write it incorrectly even now. Also, my son is the same about being a perfectionist. He will not look fondly on it later if he sees a misspelling. If he knows something is misspelled, he definitely would not want it in his keepsake journal.

I'm not sure how I'm going to handle this. I was thinking I would either let him write and then correct it with him including spelling before copying it into his notebook or allowing him to ask me the spelling before he writes the word. (I would guide him in sounding it out rather than just spelling it for him.) I'm not sure I'm planning to do it, but I think having them tell you the sentence and then copying it from you (either hand printed or typed) would work too.

Good luck!

[TriciaMR]

I would do double dictation: She tells you the sentence, you write it, do some editing if needed (together, talk about what's good or bad, etc.), and then have her copy the final draft. I have two dyslexics who are exactly like you say: they write it once wrong, and that's the way they spell it almost every time (my 7th grader still writes whit for with).

-Trish

[MuzzaBunny]

My dd is very much a perfectionist as well. This is how I'm doing the notebook with her. She tells me what she's going to write and then before she writes each word, I say, "Okay, and how do you spell that one?" She tells me and if she's right, I'm very positive and she goes ahead. If she's wrong, I'm very casual, like, "Oh, actually, there's a 'u' there between the 'o' and the 's'. Hard to hear, isn't it? So, lets sneak that 'u' in there..." She's happy it's right, she's never acts like she feels pressured or unhappy and it's a treasured keepsake in the making.

[kw4blessings]

I appreciate all the thoughts here as we are getting ready to begin this part of the Bible ntbk as well. I wasn't sure how I was going to go about it, either, but I like the dictation/copy idea....at least at first. My dd would tell me a story all day, but I think she'd be intimidated to write the whole sentence on her own at first.

[asheslawson]

I agree with not over-correcting - however my daughter would point out words and ask me if they were wrong. In that case - I would tell her the truth & show her the correct spelling. This seemed to work fine. However - I keep a 'word bank' in my Spelling Power activity task card box. I use notecards with their name on the top: "O's word bank" & "M's word bank". On this - any time they mis-spell a word during the day - especially one they misspell regularly - I write the word down on the notecard. I write these in columns - very neatly. Any time I want to drill or let them do a task from the box - I grab their word bank lists & use those words. It is a great way to practice words they don't know - or struggled with at first. ****NOTE: I do NOT use Spelling Power for my daughter yet - but she sometimes likes to do the activities I have given my older son so I have just begun keeping her word bank as well. That way if he makes a spelling crossword, or writes words in sand, or cuts letters from magazines & spells cards from his word bank - she can too. Just didn't want anyone to think I was recommending SP too early - I agree with waiting till 3rd grade to start SP - but keeping a word bank of words your child missed has been great review for my dc.

[Yodergoat]

Thanks for all the responses! Lots of ideas to think about!

I like the idea of a "word bank" and that reminds me also that there is a list of words in the blue phonics book, which usually has names and such. That could sure help too!

My husband was telling me last night that he struggled so hard with writing in public school 1st. He remembers the teachers would ask you to "write a letter to Santa" and then would put a few key words on the board.
My husband learned to read without phonics, so he couldn't spell any other words besides those, and those longer words were hard to read because they were up there because they were hard words! And besides that, he didn't believe in Santa so the motivation wasn't there, but of course he couldn't say that. He despised the awkardness of such activities, especially knowing that it was going to be printed in the newspaper (our school system still does this, up to THIRD grade). It also ends up being like a competition for the teachers in a way, since each class is listed (with kids' full names and grades as well as the teacher's name). Some classes are obviously much better written than others, and I can't imagine that this activitity does anything except cause pride (or shame) for the teachers. Strange thing to do, especiallly since not even all children believe in Santa and not all parents participate in pretending about Santa.

Anyway, my husband vividly remembers the awkwardness of this, and of not getting help from the teachers aside from the key words.
He is glad that Gail doesn't have to go through sitting there in a room of 30 kids struggling with what to do and staring at a blank piece of paper like that, feeling ridiculous and with the knowledge that the "cute spelling errors" were what the parents and newspaper readers were hoping to see so it would be "funny." I remember doing it too, but was a better speller so it wasn't as big of a deal.

It encouraged Gail to know that he struggled with spelling and reading some big words, too.