English Components in MFW high school, add? sub?

[Lucy]

Grammar - Not needed in high school?

I noticed there is no grammar, from what I can see, in the high school program. Why is that? Is there just the assumption that they won't need more after that or is it in there and I'm just not seeing it? I'm not completely comfortable with no more grammar at all, but I could be wrong about them even needing it.

Hi Teresa,

My daughter completed the first year of MFW high school this year and there is grammar review. I emphasize review because it would not be enough without some previous instruction. It is integrated into the writing program which is why you can not see it when looking at the program.

There are 34 grammar exercises which does not sound like much at first but they are done each time a paper is written and the last part of the exercise is to check and apply the information to the writing they are currently working on. The last nine lessons are done independently of a paper. I think it was a great way to review grammar. Also in the history lessons there is a part called grammar point that is in conjunction with the bible or history question being answered that day. These are more focused on the mechanics such as run-on sentences or capitalization rules. Again a great way to slip the grammar and mechanics review in .

I hope this helps you to see how it is incorporated into the high school program as well. Let me know if you have more questions on this.

Lucy

[Teresa in TX]

Lucy, I also appreciate your comments from someone who has used the high school level. It sounds like I have no worries in that regard.

I'm slowly starting to just bring all the MFW recommendations into practice for us.

[gressman9]

I am expecting baby #6 in September. The ages of my children are 14, 13, 10, 5, 2 and #6 in Sept. I am thinking of doing MFW 1850- mondern for my 13 and 10yo and starting my 14yo on the High School Ancients.

So, my tentative plan is:
14yo: MFW Ancients
Apologia Science
Saxon Algebra
Rod and Staff English 9
Vocabulary from Classical Roots

Thanks for any advice, or encouragement!! We need a good year!!

Jennifer
I would agree that you do NOT need to add English to the high school Ancients program. My dd would not have had time for it. There isn't a lot of grammar in the program...just a little, but there is tons of writing, vocab, and literature.

I have 7 children. We did K, ECC, and high school Ancients (plus an 11th grader in Abeka dvd school). Did we keep up? Not with everything. I would say that the K program suffered the most in our house. We pretty much just did the phonics even though the rest was great, we just didn't have time. My 12 yr old did quite a lot of what I "should have read' on his own. My 8 yr old just did a little less. We are behind on the read alouds as Dad does those at night.

We love MFW. I think you will be pleased. Just remember that all curriculum is just a tool...you can adjust it to fit your family.

Carylee
mom2seven

[momtoaaa]

I guess I really need to look at the HS Ancients to get a feel for the English. So there is vocabulary in it too? How much writing will there be? My son is so weak in grammar skills, so I feel we need a bit of a refresher. Maybe I will work with him over the summer to get him where he needs to be. He went to PS last year and I really don't think he learned anything in English. I think they read a few books outloud in class and discussed them. I never saw homework, and there were only a handful of papers written...and by handful I mean 2-3. Then, he really never knew what he did wrong with the papers, and just received a letter grade... strange. So I feel like alot of things were "undone" due to lack of practice. GRRRR

Thanks again everyone,
Blessings,
jennifer

[gressman9]

Yes, lots of vocab from the literature that they read. Lots of writing, too. They write quite a few arguementative essays, a couple of psalms, and some fables. Everything is explained very well...and grammar is occasionally included when needed. It is very independent, too. This is a very high quality highschool program.

Carylee
mom2seven

[Julie in MN]

Hi! We are planning to use MFW for HS. Our 8th grader is using Analytical Grammar and Writing With Skill this year. He is a strong speller and does a great job with written narrations. We love WWS and would like to use the next level.

I haven't seen the Language Arts component of Ancient History and Literature in person. Does it include writing instruction? I know it has writing assignments. Would using WWS alongside it be redundant? We will continue with Analytical Grammar for sure, but I am not sure if he will need a separate writing curriculum or not. Thank you for any information! We are excited about using MFW for HS and hope to stick with it for the full four years!

Hi and welcome,
It's been a little over a year for us, so I hope someone fresher will answer, too.

From my point of view, I wouldn't want to overload a new high schooler, and would want to spend time on quality over quantity. If I were going to add something, I'd try to find a place to sub it out, at least at first. Here are some conversations about blending other things in: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11161
Or, maybe I'd start with the program as written, and add only as I saw a need. Both writing and grammar are already included in AHL, but each student's needs and each family's goals will differ.

The Language Arts component of AHL, let's see if I can summarize and then others can correct me

1. Essays - the argumentative essay is the focus of the writing program in AHL. It is taught using a MFW version of a Smarr guide, if you're familiar with that program. If not, there are some samples on my post here, and the first one has an essay-related assignment at the very, very end (and it shows a grammar lesson, too): http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 776#p70945

Let's see, I counted up the essays here, and it looks like 5 over the year: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php ... 763#p92763
I'd say that the beginning and the end of the year feel essay-heavy, especially if you have a kid who needs to be dragged into high school level writing like my happy-go-lucky youngest son
During the middle of the year, you do more projects such as Proverbs, Psalms, and the Greek alphabet.

2. Literature - maybe I'll just refer you to my post above about that, since I'm not sure what questions you might have. The Smarr sample #2 also gives a feel for the pieces of literature that are studied more in depth (not all of them are), and some of the spelling/vocab, I think. Also, the website sample of AHL shows a week where a literature study is being done, so you can see the assignments there: http://www.mfwbooks.com/products/15/Anc ... e/#Samples

3. There is optional free reading on the grid sometimes, and that might be easy enough to sub out for a grammar or writing program. My son subbed it out for his book club.

Not sure if that was too much bouncing around with links. Keep asking questions if you're puzzled.
Julie

[Bret Welshymer]

Two of my children have completed MFW HS. We did not see any need to add to the composition already included in AHL or any other year of the program. Both have received good grades on college courses that included essays.

The Ancient Literature Supplement with Grammar and Composition instructs students step-by-step how to write a strong five-paragraph argumentative essay. Five unique argumentative essays are written during the year to help students improve their skills. Detailed instruction explains how to write a thesis statement and format each of the five paragraphs. Grammar lessons related to this type of writing are included.

I hope this is helpful.

[Sheila in OK]

We are in week 22 of AHL. I haven't found any need to supplement the grammar/writing at all. I did buy the 9th grade Easy Grammar workbook as an add-on but it started to seem like busywork so we dropped it. If you do want to continue with what you are doing, I would definitely modify the AHL assignments (or drop some of them altogether) because it would probably be too much. But then again, you would lose some of the benefit of the program because the English component flows along so well with the history and Bible portions.

[Julie in MN]

I can't decide if we should continue spelling into highschool with my step-daughter. She is a poor speller. She's just finishing up Level G, which means there are still four more levels to go. I think she *needs* more spelling, but I also think her day is going to be pretty full as it is. She's not very acedemically strong, so I'm already trying to decide if it gets to be too much what we can cut out. How important is spelling at this point?

Hmmm, I think spelling is a useful skill. But, if the methods so far aren't helping a whole lot, then it seems hard to justify continuing more of the same. Maybe she isn't a good memorizer, or for whatever reason maybe she needs a new approach. Or maybe they are advanced word lists she isn't reinforcing by using them in her reading yet, and she might do better using words right from her literature or her science (I did that with ds).

Another possibility at this point is that she just needs to accept her weakness and find out how to compensate. For instance, she could start with one group of words she knows she is missing. In my case I might notice I was confusing ie/ei (friend/height) words so I'd make myself a short list for each spelling and have it on hand, adding to it when needed. A short list might lie next to my computer monitor, or a longer set of lists might be a thin reference binder shelved next to the monitor. These days with the internet, you can just google a list, but it's probably more helpful to save a list of words you actually find yourself needing. (Here is an interesting little page I just googled, although I think it has a typo and it should be 15 ei / 33 ie: http://improvingenglishspelling.blogspo ... blems.html)

Another compensation might be learning how to use Spellcheck well. Or having one of those mini computerized dictionary gadgets that are similar to a calculator. And with all of these methods, a primary skill is learning to recognize what you don't know and not to assume you can wing it.

Hopefully you'll get more suggestions, too.
Julie

[TriciaMR]

I've found a book called the Logic of English. They have a spelling/phonics curriculum, but I'm just having my 7th grader read the book for now (she is dyslexic and spelling is one of her nemesi). It explains the rules, how to apply them, and the exceptions. They have a website (got the book off of amazon). I had spelling through high school - 10 or 20 words a week, with definitions. But, I'm going to keep working with her as long as I can and then teach her how to use the spell check on the computer better.

[Julie in MN]

I am wondering why MFW's only chooses one year of diagramming?

I understand waiting until 8th grade, but I would like to know why there isn't a review of diagramming in high school?

Hi Missy,
There is definitely grammar review in high school. AHL has a grammar component in the "Literature and Composition Supplement." US1 uses the Easy Grammar book for 11th grade. I don't remember diagramming being a method in either of those; I could double-check to be sure, but if diagramming was covered, it was briefly. However, *grammar* review is definitely included in MFW high school language arts.

Diagramming is a technique for learning grammar. Diagramming isn't the end-goal, instead it's a method used by some to achieve the goal -- understanding grammar. In some senses, grammar isn't even the end-goal; learning to write well is the true goal.

MFW doesn't emphasize diagramming. This isn't all that unusual -- many other language arts programs also don't use diagramming at all, or don't focus on diagramming. I have my personal bias towards spending more time on writing because I didn't see grammar lessons transfer all that well into writing when I was a tutor in a grammar-heavy program (Kumon), and because I don't see grammar as an exact science (even dictionaries will often give alternatives, and some of us grammar geeks enjoy lengthy debates on things like whether some possessive pronouns are actually adjectives, or vice versa).

But some do focus on diagramming as a method of understanding grammar, and in the end for hopefully writing better or at least having a tool for discussing/evaluating why one's writing isn't working well. If you like the method, you can certainly add (or sub for the existing grammar assignments) in order to use the diagramming method.

Does that help at all? I think there may be some archives around describing why Marie Hazell chose not to focus on grammar until middle school, but not sure she's discussed the tool of diagramming itself.

Julie

[Missy OH]

Julie,

Thanks so much for sharing you view! It is appreciated.

Bumping this up in hope that MFW will chime in.

Blessings,

[Bret Welshymer]

Julie gave a really great answer to this question. We believe that the study of diagramming in Applications of Grammar completed in 8th grade provides the background, understanding, and retention that most children need. This study of grammar including diagramming followed by the grammar instruction and review included in the MFW high school program prepares students for future composition in college and/or a career. This belief has been confirmed by others whose children have used our recommendations for language arts through high school.

[Julie in MN]

Is poetry covered in any of the resources for 7th-12th grades? If so, how and what is covered. Thanks!

Hmmm, I remember there is quite a lot of poetry in the Notgrass documents book, which is mostly used in WHL. There is also an American poetry book used in US1. And of course the epic poetry of Homer is read in AHL.

Does that help?
Julie

[Poohbee]

Yes, thank you. Do any of the Writing Strands books teach how to write poetry?

My dd has completed Writing Strands 3, 4, and 5. I don't recall there being any poetry assignments in them.

I ended up doing my own poetry unit a couple of years ago. There are lots of books out there about writing poetry. It is pretty easy to put together a little unit about reading and writing poetry at the elementary level.

[Missy OH]

I've only made it through part of WS 5 w/ one of dc several years ago and I couldn't remember any poetry writing in it.

I know we have poetry for 2-6th using Language Lessons, and there is some poetry in high school. So it looks like 7th and 8th grades would be the years I could do some supplementing if I choose.

Thank you!

[Kelly1730]

We did our own poetry unit one year and now I just choose 3 poets per year and read a daily selection from them. Sometimes we discuss, sometimes not .

[4Truth]

In AHL (9th grade), you get all the poetry from the Bible (when those sections of the Bible are studied as literature), and the version of Gilgamesh that MFW uses is a form of poetry, as well.